Veg
Randall's Friend (800-1999)
Posts: 1,550
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Post by Veg on May 14, 2005 23:33:03 GMT -5
Hi, I just have one question for everyone. Does anybody want to hear something about animal rights or something? Like what happens in factory farms, or what happens to the animals who are raised for their fur, or anything?
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Post by lizardgirl on May 15, 2005 5:19:38 GMT -5
Well, I know that factory farms aren't as they seem- the companies try to cover up just how cruel they are being to the animals. But if you can expand on this, then do so! ;D
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Post by Mirage on May 15, 2005 9:08:47 GMT -5
I'm ALL for animal rights! I've done my research on factory farms and such...I avoid fur, leather, meat, products tested on animals, etc etc. If you want to share more info, you can.
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Post by RandallBoggs on May 15, 2005 10:08:58 GMT -5
I am one for animal rights.
I remember a KFC incident where those that cut the chickens actually started playing with them and killing them inhumanly....
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Post by lizardgirl on May 15, 2005 11:10:58 GMT -5
I always make sure to avoid anything with real fur, or scales, etc. It's so horrible what they do to some animals.
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Post by RandallBoggs on May 15, 2005 11:12:54 GMT -5
It gives you a small taste of what they would do to monsters if found in our world....
I was disgusted with what they did about that Dragon they showed on Animal Planet. Sure. It was fake, but it was so believeable. They just gutted it up for science....not thinking it might be the only one...
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Post by pitbulllady on May 15, 2005 12:03:05 GMT -5
Do any of you actually KNOW what "rights" mean? I would have to seriously doubt it, since most people really have no clue. Most people don't even know what OUR rights are, or aren't, and often confuse "rights" with "privileges".
Your RIGHTS are NOT how others are supposed to treat you, but rather, what YOU are allowed-no, EXPECTED-to do, as explained by your country's constitution or the equivalent. RIGHTS are not arbitrarily given-they must be earned, and they must be earned with the understanding that with rights MUST come certain responsibilities, or those rights CAN be taken away. To give you a good example, I, as an adult citizen of the United States of America, have the right to vote in elections, as guaranteed by the US Constitution, UNLESS of course, I am convicted of a felony, upon which conviction my right to vote will be taken away. I have the right as guaranteed by the US Constitution to keep and bear firearms, unless of course, I use a firearm in the commission of a criminal act, upon which conviction my firearms will be taken away and my right to keep any more will be terminated. I am capable of understanding this, and I am capable of making decisions that will ensure I can keep those rights as an individual, and as a nation.
Animals DO NOT HAVE RIGHTS, period. There is no evidence, scientific or otherwise, which indicates ANY non-human animal species on this planet can comprehend the concept of rights, let alone act responsibly within those rights. If I commit a crime, I am held liable and responsible and can face punishment under the law, and I am capable of comprehending this, and controlling MY behavior so that I may keep my rights. My dogs, cats, and snakes are NOT. Animals do not have morals, as morals, by and large, are influenced by society's beliefs in what is right and wrong, and the beliefs established by religion. Animals do not have cultures or societies, nor do they express any religious belief upon which to base the concept of morality. An animal does either what its instinct prompts it to do, or what training and conditioning prompt it to do, with no thought whatsoever as to the legal or ethical wrongness or rightness of its behavior. If I choose to use a gun to hold up a convenience store, my punishment is decided by the judiary system of this nation and state. They ensure that I act responsibly within my rights as a US citizen. Who is to hold a coyote responsible if it kills someone's pet cat, hmm? Do you believe that the coyote KNEW what it was doing would cause emotional grief to the people who loved the cat, or that it is concerned with whether or not the cat suffered physical pain and emotional stress while being torn apart? Who decides what punishment the coyote is to receive, and does anyone believe that the coyote will understand WHY it is being punished? If you say the coyote should NOT be punished or in any way held responsible for its behavior, because it is just doing what coyotes do, then there is no logical way you can claim that the coyote, or any other animal, has RIGHTS!
pitbulllady
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Post by pitbulllady on May 15, 2005 12:03:55 GMT -5
Most people, especially young people, confuse the concepts of "animal RIGHTS" with "animal WELFARE". They are NOT the same thing! Animal rights is exactly what I described in my first paragraph-the assumption that animals have the same rights as we humans, can understand those rights, BUT that they, unlike us, should not be held responsible for THEIR behavior. Animal WELFARE's belief is that we humans, as beings with a sense of morality and ethics that sets us apart from other animals, have a moral obligation to minimize animal suffering, but with the knowledge that we ourselves are a part of the natural scheme of things, not apart from it, and the natural scheme of things does, always has, and always will, include species exploiting other species for their own benefits. Wolves exploit animals like deer for food, and so do we humans. The difference is that a human can at least make an effort to ensure as quick a death as possible or animals that we do kill, whereas a wolf pack could care less. Yes, there are animal-related practices which are cruel and cause needless suffering, BUT we cannot always judge what causes stress to another species by what causes stress to us. I had an animal rights person make the grave mistake once of confronting me because she saw me in public with one of my 100-lb. Catahoula dogs on a leash, with a choke collar. As she approached, the dog herself made it very clear WHY she was wearing a choke collar, as she would have happily ripped out this woman's carotid arteries with no thought whatsoever as to the pain it would have caused if I had not had that little advantage in controlling this dog. One of the woman's questions to me was, "how would YOU like it if someone put that chain around YOUR neck and drug you around on a leash, hmm?" My response was that I probably wouldn't like it, but then, I, unlike my dog, am able to excersise restraint over my behavior(most of the time)so that no one else needs to do this for me, AND I probably also wouldn't enjoy wallowing on a three-week old rotting possum carcass, drinking from a toilet, or sniffing anyone else's @$$ in greeting, either, but that my dog clearly DOES enjoy those things, so it's not sensible for me to base what the dog likes or dislikes based on what *I* like or dislike! Can someone explain to me, in logical, not emotion-driven terms, why it would be wrong for ME to shoot a deer, killing it instantly(and I'm a very good shot with a rifle), while it is OK for a pack of wolves to spend hours chasing, harassing and biting that same deer, gradually severing major muscles and connective tissue, gradually tearing their way into its abdominal cavity until they are able to reach in and pull out its intestines, WHILE THE DEER IS STILL ALIVE AND STANDING, literally eating it alive? That's how wild canids kill large prey animals, you know. Why is one cruel and the other not? To say that I'm cruel and a wolf isn't, when I can at least make an effort to quickly and painlessly dispatch my next meal, is pure hypocracy.
As for groups like PeTA and the HSUS(Humane Society of the United States), they are diametrically opposed to everything I enjoy. They do NOT want you to know this, since it would cost them supporters(read:FINANCIAL supporters), but their REAL agenda is to put an end to ALL forms of animal/human interaction, NOT just factory farming, eating of meat, hunting, etc. They want to put a stop to the practice of people keeping pets of ANY kind, to put an end to ALL forms of animal breeding and exhibiting, from zoos to dog shows. They are behind the current epidemic of laws designed to ban ownership of specific breeds or types of dogs, like Pit Bulls and "wolf-dogs", as well as bans on "exotic" animals, like snakes. They are pushing laws mandating that ALL existing animals kept by humans be spayed or neutered, to achieve their perfect goal of zero population growth, so that when the current population dies, there will be no others to replace them with, resulting in total extinction of domesticated animals. They are behind limits on how many animals my reside at a given household, and those limits get smaller and smaller each time such a law is passed. Their goal is to make it so difficult, legally, for humans to keep or in any way interact with, any non-human animal, that people will simply give up, and we will eventually have a world where the only opportunities to even SEE animals are in old issues of "National Geographic". Since they KNOW that most sane humans aren't going to buy into this, they use other tactics, such as convincing the public that certain animals are simply too dangerous to live with humans, either because of the potential for attacks or diseases, that there is a huge overpopulation of homeless pets(more on that in a moment), or that humans are simply incapbably of properly caring for certain types of animals, or that every contact with humans presents such stress to the animals, yada, yada, yada. Sadly, there are many who, out of ignorance and gullibility, buy into this.
Does any of you know what happens when one of these animal rights groups succedes in getting such laws on the books, hmm? Let's take say, a ban on Pit Bulls and Pit Bull-type dogs, which can be any medium-large dog with a muscular build and a short coat(think of how many dogs fit THAT description). When the ban takes effect, all such dogs are located, confiscated from their owners, regardless of how much they are loved, regardless of whether or not they have EVER exhibited aggressive behavior, and THEY ARE KILLED. The owners are charged with a crime, and will face stiff fines, jail time, or both. They can, in some states, have other property, such as cars and houses, seized. Someone please tell me how this is humane, to either the dog or the people, because I am totally failing to understand this point, and I am a very intelligent person. If any of you do not believe me, write to PeTA and ask them point-blank to give you their position on keeping and breeding pets, on animals in zoos, on events like dogs shows, or keeping animals like snakes and lizards. You might be surprised, but one thing you should not be surprised at is to be bombarded with propoganda at why such things are cruel, dangerous, etc, propoganda which has absolutely NO basis in FACT whatsoever!
I won't knock a person's choice of food, that is YOUR business. BUT, when a group wishes to take away MY dogs, MY snakes, MY cats, and tell ME what I can or cannot eat, it's MY BUSINESS, and MY rights to Life, Liberty and MY freakin' Pursuit of Happiness that they are trampling on, and I do not appreciate it! There is an old saying, "Your rights stop where my face begins", in other words, before you support something, you better think long and hard about how it affects others besides yourself, or you might just find yourself cutting off your own nose to spite your own face one on of these days.
And I could pretty much guarantee that Randall Boggs is NOT a vegan or a vegetarian, not with those teeth and forward-facing eyes and predator's intelligence.
pitbulllady
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Post by RandallBoggs on May 15, 2005 12:05:57 GMT -5
Vegan?
Well...it's not like "rights" exist anyway. As I said "they're just words on a piece of paper".
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Post by Mirage on May 15, 2005 12:49:43 GMT -5
Vegans don't eat ANY animal products whatsoever. No dairy, no eggs, no nothing. Vegetarians only shun meat. I know Randall's no vegetarian! And I don't think people are wrong for eating meat or hunting. I would never be able to go out into a forest and shoot a deer, I know, but that's mainly because I wouldn't need to. I understand that you shooting the deer will be a lot less painful than it getting taken down by the wolf pack. I've been a member of the HSUS for a while...but PETA is one group I never can decide if I like or not. I've offered them support on many of the bigger issues. But of course I DON'T think that people shouldn't have pets, or breed animals, or show dogs, or any of that. And I'm certainly against all the breed-specific legislation. I guess what I truly mean when I said I am for animal rights is, in fact, that I am for animal welfare; what I mean by animal rights of course isn't that they have written laws and societies and responsibilities for behavior, etc. Last year one of the only things my (rather boring) history class discussed was the concept of "rights," and what they are and how they're different from privileges..all that. I just believe that humans should recognize the "right" (for lack of a better term..), as living creatures, of animals to live peacefully--as we would like to live, and not to be caused unnecessary suffering. We are part of nature, and we can't be separated from the other animals. Even though the things they enjoy are different in many ways from what we like (ie...the drinking from toilets...lol), I think it's safe to assume that they want to avoid pain just as much as people do...and therefore I've always been strongly against things that cause them unnecessary suffering...like the fur business, 'sports' like bullfights, etc etc... And factory farms, I would think, are one of those things that everyone could agree are bad; I love this flash cartoon that sums it up: www.themeatrix.com. It made my family not want to buy meat from the supermarket anymore. And I've started asking my mom to get 'cage-free' eggs. That's just what I believe and I *always* get into talks like this, because I've got a father who hunts, and a family full of animal lovers, yet they don't share ALL my views...my dad won't eat veal, for one thing...but I do kinda get tired of talking about it so I'll stop now. ;D
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Post by RandallBoggs on May 15, 2005 12:54:48 GMT -5
Humans may be evolved....but it's not like the "Hunt" will ever disappear...
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Post by pitbulllady on May 15, 2005 19:12:24 GMT -5
You made some excellent points, Mirage, and you're right-your philosophy equals animal WELFARE, which is pretty much mine. I hunt because like you said, it's very true that animals raised on factory farms, which is where nearly all supermarket meats come from, are unhealthy and full of dangerous chemicals, which become part of OUR systems when we eat the meat. Wild game is so much healthier, not only in terms of being free of steroids, growth hormones, antibiotics, etc., but much less in terms of trans-fatty acids, LD cholesterol, and other "baddies". Also, supermarket meat is soaked in water prior to sale, to make it weigh more, so the store can charge more, and the water, well, waters down the taste. When you cook it, the water evaporates, and you're not left with nearly as much of a meal as what you paid for! My views on animal use pretty much echo those of the Native Americans and other indiginous people, along with my view that we humans are as much a part of the natural world as any other species, and that we simply cannot exist in a society free of other animals. We are biologically hard-wired to make animals a part of our lives, and when that part is removed, or we are separated from it, something wrong happens with us. And, like Sean said, we may be "evolved", but we are still instinct-driven creatures in many ways ourselves, and some of us ARE instinct-driven to be predators. Of all other animal species, those I've always felt closest to, and relate to most of all, are the carnivores, like the wolves/dogs and big cats, and the reptile predators.
For two years, I had the pleasure of working with a fellow teacher who was a Kikuyu tribeswoman from Kenya. For her people, animals were a vital link to the natural world. When she came to work in the US, she found it disturbing that so many children were growing up without pets, without farm animals, not being able or willing to go out in the wild and simply observe animals and other natural things, and as a result, they were growing up afraid of animals and in total ignorance about them. As we know, and have discussed, people learn to hate that which they fear or know little about, so it was little wonder to her that deliberate acts of cruelty towards other animal species abounded in this country. She admired me for being one of the few people in this school district who was trying to change that, and being one of the few Americans she'd ever met who had really taken the time to learn, through experience and observation, the workings of nature, without fear or what she called "storybook emotions". She left our district to return home to Kenya, with an open invitation for me to come and visit her and her people, an invitation I hope I can one day fullfill.
pitbulllady
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Post by RandallBoggs on May 15, 2005 19:21:11 GMT -5
*nods*
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Veg
Randall's Friend (800-1999)
Posts: 1,550
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Post by Veg on May 15, 2005 20:07:53 GMT -5
Anyways...I heard that they raise lizards in windowless sheds and when the humans think they are ready to be made into boots or such, they break their necks or stomp on them. Can you imagine if somebody actually did that to Randall? GASP!
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Post by RandallBoggs on May 15, 2005 20:10:45 GMT -5
*Shing* They wouldn't even have time to gasp....
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