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Post by RandallBoggs on Jan 30, 2010 19:55:01 GMT -5
*rubs temple* Hmm...anybody recall any other threads on the facebook page, recent at the time, that had any topic names that might have had a different reason for them to take it all down?
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Post by sgtyayap on Jan 30, 2010 19:55:04 GMT -5
But there's still the first three Randall-related posts: your position on Randall getting redeemed, the other person's first immature remarks, and your first retort. These posts, especially your first one, were up for quite a while. Maybe even a month in total.
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Post by RandallBoggs on Jan 30, 2010 20:01:06 GMT -5
*taps head* Good info Sgt. *folds arms* Hmm...well Pixar IS a family-oriented business...and to my knowledge their work doesn't reflect on religion as well, perhaps understanding it's sensative. *rubs head* I can understand them taking down a topic for that...but the fact is they gave no reason and just shut the whole thing down. *shrugs* Likely it was the religion topic then, but still no reason to take the whole thing down...........unless perhaps this christian person was NOT just posting in your guys's topic causing trouble...but in other ones as well.
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Post by sgtyayap on Jan 30, 2010 20:04:54 GMT -5
Alas, that is one thing I do not know. And yet, based on this person's behavior, it certainly IS possible; I never really looked at the other threads, anyway.
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Post by pitbulllady on Jan 30, 2010 20:35:12 GMT -5
Alas, that is one thing I do not know. And yet, based on this person's behavior, it certainly IS possible; I never really looked at the other threads, anyway. BUT, if she was stirring up trouble in other parts of the Disney-Pixar Facebook, why didn't they just ban HER? You can do that, keep certain people from posting. I almost got the impression that she was deliberately "trolling" with the religious angle. I've seen that before; someone comes on a forum, claiming to be a "concerned Christian", and starts attacking others and their statements, and becomes more and more outrageous in their posts, eventually becoming more and more obvious that they are not "Christian" at all, but are intentionally trying to make others think badly of the people who are. There actually was someone on the IMDb M.I. forum a few years ago who came on and asked what seemed to be a legitimate question, wanting to know if the movie was suitable for her 2-year-old son, or if it contained any material that would be too intense for a child of that age, or any profanity or sexual references. The poster stated that "she" was a "concerned Christian mom" and had not been happy with some of the stuff from Disney lately. "Her" posts just got more and more crazy, going on about all the explicit sex in Disney movies, then accusing people who questioned that judgement of being "in league with Satan", saying that sex was "filthy", etc. I had begun to suspect a troll long before this, but when another poster asked just how "she" had wound up with this wonderful little two-year-old son if not for sex, and the "concerned Christian mom" claimed to have been artificially inseminated, I did some digging around on the other IMDb forums, using that poster's user name, and found out that "she" was actually a 19-year-old MALE college student who hated Christians and wanted to portray them as negatively as possible and who'd figured out that impersonating one all over the 'net and making posts like this was a good way to do it. Of course, I immediately "outed" him, though not before he'd started an almost-identical thread on both the "FHFIF" forum and The Incredibles forum. He thought it was all very funny, to see people get all riled up about what prudes these "Christians" were. pitbulllady
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Post by RandallBoggs on Jan 30, 2010 20:39:30 GMT -5
*rubs neck* Ugh...Malice...
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Bampot
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Post by Bampot on Jan 31, 2010 2:13:10 GMT -5
Typical troll. And instead of just banning him, they deleted a whole forum? I'm going to assume it's because of said discussion because, well, why else would they do that. It's just a very unfair things. I would expect something more professional when it's a fan forum ran by the actual company, but I guess not. I wonder who manages their facebook page.
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Post by mentalguru on Jan 31, 2010 2:53:22 GMT -5
I somehow doubt this specific person on facebook was an example of Poe's myself, the 'pray for you' line is common among real bona-fide christians even in a kind of passive-agressive way sometimes (basic definition- they believe Jesus is their lord and saviour, I don't hold stock with people nitpicking over this issue much myself really- since almost every keeps on claiming someone else isn't a real christian and the 'real scotsman' thing), and I've seen it a lot. However clearly of course that bloke with the disney films WAS an example of trying to subvert and use Poe's law for his own amusement. Poe's law:
"Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing."
Basically, people have seen people take these things seriously, or things remarkably similar seriously because there ARE people out there who defend them seriously or do truely act that way as mad as it is.. Plus it's pretty dang easy to trick people because of it because of it. Though I've caught the odd person trying to use Poe's law. I've also seen people panic and more or less say- "THAT was a joke." because sarcasm is difficult if you're too subtle about it. And because people like that really do exist well... it just makes it worse and easy to fool people. Then there are people mistaken for Poe's who are REAL. It can get confusing.
My aunt is responsible for a small part of my internal personal problems with the religious beliefs I had specifically, they more or less already existed- but she (probably unknowingly), simply made them grow and become worse. I forgave her though for what she did but it was kind of difficult at first. She's not a BAD person but... it's just a case of her not really EVER thinking how things really sound. Like saying certain people would go to hell. That being gay was a sin etc. I was a kid, and I trusted her judgememnt as someone older- since SOME of her beliefs were indeed seemingly backed with the bible, I trusted her on other things- it was only when my new friend got me to question that sort of stuff more that I made a break in that for the better.
The thing is- I don't hate my aunt all the same, even if she hadn't got better with time I probably wouldn't- she still has her odd moments here and there but the simple fact of the matter is- she was being hateful yes in some respects and still can have her moments, but she's afraid.
She's afraid both my sister and I will go to hell, that her nephews will, and that kind of mental overhang can do things to people. It made me completely and utterly almost drive a kid in a more or less happy family such as myself contemplate killing herself from a very young age. It in some cases caused me to cease to sleep. I became more withdrawn as this fear is incredibly powerful and gripping- fearing for people you care about, fear for people you don't even KNOW, feeling like an utter failure for not doing more in that respect etc. And if they ARE like that- they might use the net if they don't have the confidence of prophetise.
The thing is- there ARE people who act like that, go in all guns blazing talking about hell, but most of them who are serious- well they're probably just afraid. They're just afraid for people they both know and don't know and screeching at anyone who'll listen in the hope of stopping more people from going to the 'bad place'. Fear is the only thing they know so it is their tool.
I know, because that person used to be me. I eventually got better at expressing myself and less guns blazing, but it eventually became clear it wasn't a healthy mental state for me to be in at all. I was pretty lucky I got my friend when I did- she helped me become less internally terrified, and gradually over time I began to question it all more.
It's a problem with the net to be certain in general. I run into the guns blazing preacher on many occurences. My first wanted response is to be angry but sometimes I ignore them- other times I offer to talk. Granted I probably sometimes come off as patronising in that respect (pretty much told to stick my concern). I've been the hell-fire person (thankfully for a VERY short time, while the hell fire period was strong and long, it was internal mostly because I didn't have the confidence to speak out OR the internet for most of it, I had the West B church beliefs by mistake despite the fact that my family's church was moderate... the difference was I hated it and was terrified of it and felt utterly helpless), I've been the more moderate preacher, I've been the person to argue against both. Most on the net mind you- for some people that is the main/ony way in some circumstances. Sometimes, and we all do this, it's pretty easy lose our tempers, we all do this- the problem is we only see a small part of this type of person usually, and it's hard to say what they're going through at that specific time. What their buttons are and why.
Perhaps the girl WAS being sincere in her 'pray for you' line, though a part of me does think she was just a christian trying to 'look good' like the story of the tax collector and the parishee in the temple rather than someone trying to make christians look bad like the guy with the disney movies. Not a way to derail christianity in anyway but merely a way to make herself feel superior or try to salvage the fact she was losing the argument.
All and out trolls do it just to get a rise out of people, but people who DO get a rise out of people are not necessarily all trolls.
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Post by mentalguru on Jan 31, 2010 14:18:03 GMT -5
Just to clear up any potential confusion- there IS an official defintion of Poe's law- but I'm referring to the internet slang term entirely- as in the fake fundy.
You can't be on the net for any amount of time in some cases without running into one.
It's amusing when they're delibartely OBVIOUS in their parody sometimes- like 'God hates shrimp' for instance- and everyone pretty much knows (but enevitably someone will fall for it, so you try to get in with the jokes as soon as you see it, so hopefully confusion won't occur). But the people who are delibrately more sneaky about it... well. No. They're pretty trollish.
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Post by sgtyayap on Jan 31, 2010 17:15:58 GMT -5
No, they weren't. They were only up for a couple of days at the most. I posted as soon as I joined, and I had not been a member for month, that's for sure. The board was taken down just a few days after I joined. pitbulllady You know, you didn't have to modify my own post to get your point across. As for what you wrote: Apparently, we remember the incident differently. So maybe it wasn't a month before it was taken down; that's why I said "maybe". Still, my own recollection is absolutely certain your first post lasted longer than only a few days. And by your first post, I'm referring to the only one you made before the troll entered the picture.
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Post by RandallBoggs on Jan 31, 2010 19:33:23 GMT -5
Of course one problem with religion is the basic fact that there WILL be people who think THEIR religion is the ONE TRUE religion.
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Post by mentalguru on Feb 1, 2010 13:35:38 GMT -5
Basic fact of a lot of religions RB- the fact is, most people follow the religion they do because... well they basically DO believe it to be the one true religion generally or it's the one that fits.
That's fine, whatever, just when people try and claim that or convert people they shouldn't be surprised if someone asks for more proof or is not convinced. Nor do they have much of a reason to be angry. You shouldn't apologise for feelings, but it's pretty unjustifiable all the same for them to yell at people to simply 'believe' in that case. It's not a reasonable argument to use circular reasoning either.
It's not just religion though in that case. UFO things often come under this.
Personally really the only true option is either all religions are false, or all but one religion is false. The former is much more likely for me and the Buddhists however were on to something- albeit it with some tweaking- it's not that all religions are true, but (potentially) everyone has a part of the truth... but they also have a lot of lies too whether they know they are lies or not (my own addition). I have my own philosphy of life with agnosticism. If there is a god, I don't see many of his actions on earth- I just see the actions of people, nature- either accidental or intentioned.
Although it has been said that for good people to do evil things takes religion- in truth i n a lot of ways that's an oversimplification. It's certainly true in SOME cases- the blinding nature of hell fire can do things to people that they otherwise would not do. But in other cases 'bad' people just use it as a tool themselves for their own causes. To use as an excuse or worse a reason to back their own agendas. Some people do become better, others become worse because of it. Some barely change at all (random fictional example: "they were a jerk before they converted... now they'd just a jerk with pamphlets."). Religion as a whole is neither completely good nor evil-it's a social construct, it's a force, it both ties and divides people in various ways. Belief does indeed have power- just not in the same way a lot of religious people may think perhaps.
Do I think we'd be any better off without any religion? Yes, I actually do, but I'm not interested in deconversion, nor would I ever support any world wide ban on it, that sort of thing would cause wide spread chaos for one- and I am not big on the idea of 'thought police' to put it mildly. I'm not a communist fan. I also do not think a world which magically became one without religion would be a utopia by any stretch. But the idea of it becoming a complete dystopia is even more rediculous.
-- One troll/person displaying a little trollish behaviour should not be enough to take down a whole discussion board- a part of me thinks it more sounds like the girl was just trying to be holier-than-thou because (I'll repeat) she knew she couldn't win, freaked a bit, and tried to save face by acting superior in the only way she knew how.
Is there anyone to ask regards the particular action of taking down the board?
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Post by mistica0christina on Feb 1, 2010 16:20:44 GMT -5
*stares*...seriously, is it that big of a deal if the religious chick did the whole "I'll pray for you" line? If it were me and if she told me that, I would have told her one of two things. I would have told her "Good for you" or "Go to Hell!" Whether this chick was a troll or not, chances are her outlook on religion, the bible, or whatever the f**k she was trying to get across is more likely the reason why the board was taken down. Religion, whether we want to believe it or not, is just one of those subjects that if you bring it up even once, you're asking for punishment on a website. Once again, that and the fact that my own religion has a messed up reptuation, is reason enough for me to NEVER tell people that sort of junk, I would rather get my @$$ told off by some diehard christian then some complete dumb @$$ who's going to bash on me for what I believe in...makes life much easier that way.
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Post by sgtyayap on Feb 1, 2010 16:59:17 GMT -5
Exactly what I'm trying to say in relation to the board being taken down. As for the praying bit being not a big deal, I'm not sure what to say. Though I am agnostic, she clearly meant that on an offensive scale, her previous post about her my-way-or-the-highway reasoning being proof of that. Of course, again, I'm not religious, so you're just reading the opinion of a semi-non-believer.
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Bampot
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Post by Bampot on Feb 1, 2010 17:20:35 GMT -5
I agree that the praying bit was meant to be offensive. Many times I've seen a string of insults end with "I'll pray for you." I believe it's mostly used as a way to justify what they just said. I don't think the religious realize how offensive it is when hey say it. I'm sure there would be offense if someone of a religion they opposed said they would pray to their deity for you. It's just one of those "my god is right and your views are skewed" kind of things. It's also a popular assumption amount theist that atheist have no morals. I've always thought that one to be rather humorous, as every atheist I've every met has a very strong moral code. They don't need a promising afterlife to get them to do good. Also a popular assumption is that agnostics can't be theist. Another is that all Satanist worship Satan. The most popular form of Satanism is a branch of atheism that honors the idea of nonconforming and the worship of self.
But, yeah, I agree with Mistica that unless the topic is about religion, ones faith should not be brought up. Just for political correctness.
Troll or not, although I think this case is a troll, there still was no reason to close the forums for that sole reason. Everyone should be able to state their believes, but there comes a point where it's really unnecessary.
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