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Post by pitbulllady on Mar 12, 2014 15:08:47 GMT -5
There has been a lot of debate as to whether or not ROR kicked Randall out following the Scare Games, and I know that won't be answered for certain until we see Party Central. If Randall is in that short AND still wearing his ROR sweater and hanging out with them, we'll know that he was allowed to stay in. NO Randall, or a sweaterless Randall who is not associating with ROR, will mean he WAS kicked out. I did find some screencaps, though, from MU, that suggest quite strongly that they did kick him out. The first one is of that scene where Johnny and Mike are preparing for their competition, right before the signal to start. As you can see, Randall IS still there, still with the other ROR's on the sidelines, BUT notice that he is still NOT wearing his ROR sweater. Some people speculated that he only took it off to compete, since it would interfere with his invisibility, but now that his Scare was over, he should have put the sweater back on, and he does not do that. He looks very distracted, his eyes downcast, looking off to the side instead of watching Mike and Johnny out on the field, and his arms are once again folded in that "guarded" position, indicating emotional discomfort and unease. Here's the second piece of evidence, shown during Johnny and Mike's Scare, where Chet is yelling, "You're my HERO, Johnnyyyyy!" Note Randall's sweater lying on the bench beside Chet, but by this time, Randall has left. He was NOT with the ROR's during that scene, and we do not see him at all for the remainder of the movie, not even when they approach Sulley to invite him back in after the games are over. I don't know about the rest of y'all, but that little sweater lying there on that bench is just the saddest-looking thing. pitbulllady
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Post by conteremo on Mar 12, 2014 16:43:03 GMT -5
That's...so sad! I figured that Randall must have been kicked out because ROR goes out to recruit Sulley later on, and 1) Randy's not there 2) They're probably trying to fill that missing spot. I can only imagine how humiliated Randy was, and what makes it worse is that the situation is so unjust. He fell down because of Sulley, plus Sulley ended up cheating and nullifying OK's victory. I also felt bad for OK because of that, they were so happy because they thought their victory was genuine and then they find out the truth.
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Post by pitbulllady on Mar 12, 2014 18:33:51 GMT -5
Look closely at that sweater. Is it just me, or does it appear to be soiled and dirty, like it's been stomped or trampled upon? Compare its colors to the more-vibrant colors of Chet's hat and Javier's and Chip's sweaters. That is interesting, to say the least. It doesn't appear that Randall ever got his hands on that sweater again, so I have to wonder who would have done that? It had to have been one of the other ROR's, if it really is as dirty as it appears, which would have been even further painful humiliation for Randall, to return to the bench and to find that his sweater had been deliberately soiled, as if further denigrating him and letting him know in no uncertain terms of how they felt about him.
pitbulllady
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Post by RandallBoggs on Mar 12, 2014 19:32:55 GMT -5
While the whole getting kicked out thing is pretty much solid aside from a curve ball... Good work getting the screenshots for it. The one with the sweater has been around before, but the first one is a first I think.
Also, very good on the condition of the jacket as well. Given Randall's personality at the time, and as shown by his side of the dorm room, he's some-what of neat person. Given that the Scare Game events are separate from each other and not back-to-back, the thought of not keeping his ROR jacket in shape doesn't seem right. Not just because of his cleanly personality at the time, but also because the jacket signify he's "one of the cool kids". If I recall, also...he wasn't wearing it during the Haunted House hiding bit...but when the RORs come out, he has it. So, yes, he'd put it back on after he was done... Now why is it in such a state? One could guess that maybe, given that it's the last game and the RORs pretty much think they'll win, they got to partying. Nice guess...they're frat boys, but Johnny's not stupid enough to let himself and his team blow it in the final game by being tipsy or having sprained limbs from rough housing. What really might have happened? Somebody stomped the heck out of it because he "Failed to Perform".
In the first screenshot, his jacket may be right there on the bench (can't remember off-hand which shot is first or after). Given who's mostly Johnny's fan-boy, Chet probably trampled over the jacket. Though Randall may not have put it back on due to it being messed up...it's probably the thought that he was getting kicked out (or he chose to leave, knowing he would) that stopped him.
It's really ironic how much they threw into him...when it wasn't his fault...and in the end, the RORs won anyway.
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Post by pitbulllady on Mar 12, 2014 20:04:58 GMT -5
Randall actually does have his sweater on in every Scare Games challenge BUT the final Scare Competition, against Sulley. I'm not sure what you mean by the "Haunted House"-was that the challenge where the teams have to hide inside a house and avoid getting caught by the security guards? If so, Randall had his sweater on on that one. He climbs up a lamp stand so that the sweater is hidden inside the lamp shade and then "blends" so that the rest of him is invisible. He actually started out on the ceiling, then climbs down the wall and across the floor, then up the lamp stand, probably having realized that if he blended with the ceiling his sweater would still be visible and give away his position, so he made his way over to the lamp in the nick of time.
Yes, Randall is a quite a "neat freak". We can see that from looking at his side of the room. In the final competition, when Chet, Javier, Chip and Reggie are competing against their OK opponents, Randall is wearing his sweater, and it's clean. When it's his turn up, he's not wearing the sweater, and having seen Johnny's "motivational" speech to Sulley earlier in the movie, I'd inferred that Johnny did the same thing with Randall. The next time we see that sweater, it's just lying there on the bench, looking grimy and trampled-on. Johnny himself would not have time to do that, given that his own competition came up immediately afterwards, so one of the others, probably Chet like you said, had done that, either that or Randall did it himself before leaving, out of anger and hurt, realizing that all the sweater stood for had been a sham all along.
pitbulllady
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Post by RandallBoggs on Mar 12, 2014 20:15:44 GMT -5
Ah there we go. Haven't glanced at the film in a long while for personal reasons, but alright, that gives more to it...he's barely without the thing. Seems the only two instances are the prank and end-game. Guessing the former was request by Johnny and the later was so that it wouldn't mess him up. Technically, the fact that he kept his sweater on in the first place for the avoiding event (it could be considered a requirement of some sort, but given that Sullivan didn't have an OK shirt of some kind till later and Randall took his off for the last game, doesn't seem so) was either a slip by him and he got lucky noticing the lamp shade would work or that, later, he wouldn't make the same mistake when using his invisibility. (This kind of brings into question if those invisible can see themselves I suppose. If so, then maybe Randall, in his youth, was unaware that things on himself would turn invisible with him or not (going along with the possible thought that he may not have known that impact against colors would cause him to shift as well).
As proper as the term is, dislike putting it to a friend, but yes, that. Considering it seems the sweater is there on the bench when Johnny and Wazowski are going for their run...Randall may have put it there before his...as for ruining it himself, it's possible. Everyone else was watching Johnny going up against Wazowski (the long-shot versus the big dog? Who would care to look elsewhere?), so if it was a time to bail, that was it. Maybe he did do it himself out of spite, proper spite mind you.
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Post by pitbulllady on Mar 12, 2014 21:17:08 GMT -5
Went and looked through the screencaps again, and you're right; Randall was also not wearing his sweater in that scene where he releases the stuffed animals at the party. Now, this could have been so that he could remain blended until ordered to release the toys, OR it could be another example of Johnny holding onto that sweater and using it as collateral, an incentive for Randall to do something that Johnny knew he'd be reluctant to do in the first place, as in "if you want this back, Boggs, you'll do as I say". I took a good look at those screens, though, and it's obvious that Randall is behind a stage and he is NOT out on the main floor, where the action was taking place and the OK's were having all that stuff dumped on them, though. It is entirely possible that Randall actually COULD NOT SEE what was happening out there from his vantage point at all! He was just listening for Johnny's orders to let got of a rope, and the net with the toys was not located near where Randall was standing at all. I still have my doubts that Randall had any clue what was actually happening out there on the main floor. Here are two other noteworthy caps. The first is from that "charity" event after the ROR party prank. When we first see Randall in that scene, he's got this smirk on his face, until Mike comes up and challenges Johnny, and then the smirk disappears. Throughout much of that scene, Randall is looking at Johnny with this "I DO NOT APPROVE" look. He does NOT look like a happy little camper here: In that same scene, as the other OK's turn and walk away, and Mike turns to look at them and implore as to where they're going, and slowly, reluctantly takes a few steps after them(before Chet comes sidling up to him slurping on that coffee mug), Randall actually makes a gesture with his top pair of hands like he's reaching out towards Mike, then he shuts his eyes tightly and pulls his arms tightly up against his body. Note how EVERYBODY is laughing...except for Mike and Randall. pitbulllady
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Post by conteremo on Mar 12, 2014 21:20:14 GMT -5
Yeah, I remember Randy wearing the sweater while the teams were singing the school's anthem, and it was bright and vibrant. The sweater DOES look dirty in that screenshot, but I'm looking close and it may be because of a shadow or fuzziness...shadow doesn't make sense, though, because Chet's shadow falls only on the shoulder of the jacket. I third the notion that Chet would be the most likely candidate of Johnny's guys to do that, if it wasn't Randall himself. The jacket's still lying there in the first screenshot, though, so I'm not sure if there was time for someone to do that offscreen.
I seriously think it was the pink hearts that put the lid on it for ROR though, seeing as Randy's failure actually wasn't his fault (and one of the other ROR members messed up big time as well).
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Post by conteremo on Mar 12, 2014 21:30:38 GMT -5
When Randy says, "That's the last time I'll lose to you, Sullivan," I wonder if he meant, in his perspective, he's lost to him on more occasions than just that one contest.
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Post by RandallBoggs on Mar 12, 2014 21:54:12 GMT -5
Yes...an interesting bit by the way... The hiding event was AFTER the ROR prank (going by a wiki here). Now...if I'm correct in the thought that Randall's slip on having his jacket made him have to improvise with the lamp shade...then he, personally, would have slipped earlier for the prank. What am I getting to? Well, if Randall didn't figure to remove his jacket for the prank, it means somebody ELSE told him to take it off so that he would be fully invisible. Somebody ELSE. What's this mean? He was INSTRUCTED. (considering he did his "trick" in front of the RORs, Johnny knew full well that anything on Randall would still be visible (even more so, Chet's joking "where did he go", while a mocking blow, may also be belittling...in that Randall, as I said before, MAY NOT be aware that the stuff he has one his person becomes invisible with him (or that he, personally, sees himself, even when he's invisible to others). Anyway, knowing invisible or not...the fact he rarely took off the sweater shows that he may only remove it during events as instructed by a superior, most-case, being Johnny.
As for his part in the prank...being the "new guy" has it's reluctance from other members. Being that he was new, not perfect ROR material, and a friend-to-Wazowski, Johnny probably just told him his part. If it was just holding a rope (as he had to hold it, not pull it), seemed innocent enough. "Release the Stuffed Animals" as a cue doesn't really sound like something harsh. The RORs were having a party, first and foremost...and in league with the PNKs, planned to humiliate OK...as for Randall, he was just waiting for his cue... ALSO...lets remember another thing that may come in to play. For Randall, to be completely invisible, he'd have to close his eyes right? Now...if he couldn't see in the normal way...what if he couldn't see AT ALL because he was focusing on staying out of sight? Now, there's a few seconds where his eyes are open before he releases the rope...sure, he's about to put forth what he was told to do...and we don't see his expression once the dead is actually done. Maybe didn't realize what really happened (for all he knew, the sparkle and paint sounds were just frat rousing for the OKs, not actually humiliating additions).
And yes, I noticed from first viewing that Randall never laughed at that. He's keeping up a front for his RORs...but he's not to the point that he'd fall to the category of laughing at a friend (former he may be) for such things. Some people may think that Randall turned fully once he joined ROR, but of course, that's wrong. Fresh example here...even being in the best fraternity and pulling off a prank that everybody else is laughing about (not to mention the rich boys put out a LOT of material for "charity")...he doesn't. ============ Ah new member...right... Randall wasn't...well he had great grades and a skill to kill for...but the RORs didn't see him as...well going to the basis from "Nerds"....it's nerds and jocks...and Randall's no real jock. DESPITE putting forth his own in EVERY event up till the last...he screws up ONCE and they berate him enough to shatter his self-esteem. Whether they told him to go or he did it himself, it was going to happen. As far as they were concerned at the time, he may have simply screwed up...or purposely did it to give Wazowski a fighting chance. (Randall got the lowest score out of all the competitors, even the ROR member who screwed up (who should have been MORE experienced and MORE professional, yet he gets off without so much as a whack to the back of the head). For the later thought...Randall came out of the simulator seemingly unsure what happened (a link to the thought that he may be unaware that impact hits, as this is the first one seen movie-wise, change his scale colors)...and Johnny may have take his laid-back composure as a sign that Randall screwed up purposfully and, to Johnny, made a fool out of him. Only when Johnny mentions what colors Randall has did he take notice and realize what had happened, that Sullivan had messed him up.
Interesting thought about the lost thing...as it may question if Randall and Sullivan knew each other pre-college...but it may be something else... When he says that, he sees Sullivan with the OKs...and more importantly, Wazowski. Randall lost his fraternity (either his position or brotherhood from them), lost his self-esteem, was humilated, and, among other things, lost his FRIEND to Sullivan. As I've said on another topic, it always seems like Sullivan is intentionally taking things from him and screwing his life up. Friends? Taken. Respect? Taken. Fame? Taken. It's actually kind of ironic since Sullivan's been winning a lot more...
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Post by pitbulllady on Mar 12, 2014 22:04:21 GMT -5
When Randy says, "That's the last time I'll lose to you, Sullivan," I wonder if he meant, in his perspective, he's lost to him on more occasions than just that one contest. I really think that Randall DID mean he'd lost to Sullivan in more ways than this, and that he was referring to Mike. He'd tried so hard to be friends with Mike, and while Mike's rejection alone would have hurt, it wasn't the first time that Randall had experienced being ignored by someone whom he was trying to befriend, of that I'm certain. What made it so bad, though, was that after making it clear that he really was not interested in a friendship with Randall, Mike is seen with SULLEY, apparently friends with HIM! Think of how little sense that would have made to Randall, considering how badly Sulley had treated Mike earlier, in sharp contrast to Randall, who was going out of his way to be nice and helpful. Why, it was Sullivan who'd gotten Mike kicked out the Scare Program in the first place, and now Mike is friends with HIM??? The only logical explanation that Randall must have come up with to explain that would be that Mike aligned himself with Sullivan because Sullivan, unlike Randall, came from a prestigious background, had a famous Scarer for a father and a family name that everyone knew. In other words, Mike considered Sullivan to be good enough to be his friend, while Randall wasn't. That would have made Randall all the more determined to prove that he WAS good enough, by remaining in favor with the ROR's. I have to wonder if, in the back of his mind, he wasn't thinking that if he proved himself to be as cool and scary as that Sullivan guy, Mike would eventually realize his error and decide to be friends with Randall after all. Sullivan had taken his "friend", and by that last Scare competition, Randall knew he'd lost all chances of winning back Mike's "friendship", even though that was something he'd never had in the first place. And yes, RB, you're right. Randall had his eyes tightly closed while holding that rope and does not open them until ordered to "release the stuffed animals", and even if he HAD been up front on the main floor, instead of behind that stage/barrier, he STILL would not have half been able to see what was going on due to him having lousy eyesight to begin with! I am absolutely convinced, though, that Randall had no clue what was going on and was just doing as he was told, following innocent-sounding orders to let go of a rope when he heard Johnny say, "release the stuffed animals". That seemed harmless enough, and since he could not see exactly how those stuffed animals were being used, or the paint, glitter and flowers, there was no reason for him to have reservations about that. There are people who point to his expression and say, "but look, he's grinning, so he's happy to be a part of that prank", but given that he didn't KNOW and could not SEE the full prank, why shouldn't he have been happy just to be at his first ROR party? Randall opens his eyes at the same time that his hands release their hold on the rope, so he's had no idea what has happened up until now. In the scene following Randall's failed Scare, when he comes out of the Simulator room, he looks very confused and "addled", and I'm sure that fall had something to do with that. He hit that floor pretty hard, knocking the breath out of him, and it's a wonder he wasn't physically hurt. He is so dazed when he comes out of that room that not only does he fail to notice that he's covered in pink hearts, but he runs smack into Johnny, much like he does in MI when he runs into Sulley in the hallway, only he doesn't change into Johnny's colors. He keeps the heart pattern, which much have seemed like a deliberate insult to Johnny! And take a look at what Randall KNEW he'd be facing once the games were over; like Robert Johnson said, "you gotta HELLHOUND on your trail!" I would have got outa there, too, if that look had been directed at ME! In that scene, Johnny's hands start out like claws, and he slowly and deliberately clenches them into fists, a pretty clear message if ever there was one! pitbulllady
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Post by conteremo on Mar 12, 2014 22:25:26 GMT -5
Hey, I never considered that before, that Johnny might have thought Randy was cheating on purpose to help Mike! Johnny knew that Randy hung out with Mike all the time and was his friend, and because of that he might think Randy is allied with Mike to bring Johnny down. Johnny was probably unaware that Randy didn't have full control of his blending abilities. Though, one would think that Randy's reaction when Johnny cries, "Hearts!?" would let Johnny know he didn't do it on purpose.
Yes, Randy legitimately seemed to think of Mike has his friend, probably his first and only friend. Randy wants friends more than anything, and seeing Sulley "take" his first "true" friend away like that would be a huge loss to him. Even in MI Randall still shows off to Mike and interacts with him while ignoring Sulley, like he's trying to divert Mike's attention from Sulley (and get back at them both in his own little way).
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Post by RandallBoggs on Mar 12, 2014 22:36:51 GMT -5
I'll have to look at the grin again...but what if, in the time we saw it...it was FOR the OKs? Maybe he really DID think the RORs were going to give the OKs a good show. Maybe he was under the impression that "yeah...they've been doing good...maybe we ARE going to cheer for them. Sure, we'll win, probably, but they've done great." That that grin was a "here you go guys! Congrats!" Can imagine, after it all, Randall's not too happy about things...and Johnny, with his charisma, plays it off the "charity" angle of things like "well, that didn't go well, but you know what, the guys will be helping out for a charity. You know, puppies and orphans. That doesn't sound bad right?", convincing him that it "wasn't a bad thing after-all" ========================= Yes, that was something nobody considered before, till I thought of the idea in another post months or so ago. As we know, Randall did not do this on purpose...but Johnny and the others wouldn't know that he DOES have his loyalties. He may be loyal to the RORs, but he wasn't about to laugh at Wazowski for the fraternity prank. He may be loyal to Wazowski (loosely) because he was a former friend, but he's not going to cheat or fall shot in the games for him. As far as Johnny was at the time, he was heated that Randall screwed up (in this instance, to him, personally), and that the OKs MAY have a shot at winning (thereby breaking a moral-ground of Johnny's, that Wazowski wasn't cut out to be a scarer, something he, and "his father", would agree on. Randall, essentially, put his (Johnny's) way of thinking on the line. IF Randall had done well, Johnny knew he (personally) would wrap things up nicely.)
Considering between MU and MI, Randall was a very talented and respected Scarer...it's not too hard of a guess that he tried to patch things up with Wazowski, even if his relationship to Sullivan was still bugging him. In fact, they all could have gotten on neutral ground......until "somehow" Sullivan got ahead in the numbers (amazing ain't it how a college drop-out who has FEWER years under his belt as a Scarer managed to knock off MI's golden boy at the time. The same person who cheated in his college Scare Game...oh yeah, and was practically arrested on campus by the CDA.)
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Post by conteremo on Mar 12, 2014 22:40:46 GMT -5
I was just about to remark on Randy's grin in that scene. I've always been unsure of Randy's innocence in the matter because of it, since it does admittedly look like a mischievous grin. But it's hard to read Randall's expressions most of the time, because while he can look "mean," he only squints because he can't see well, and his mouth can look sinister because his teeth are so big they often stick out. So I'm at a loss as to whether that's a mischievous expression, or he's just squinting and his teeth are sticking out like always. But you're right, he never does laugh about the prank, at all, so his smiling while pulling it off just doesn't make sense...Unless it was because of a bit of personal bitterness towards Sulley, or he really was ignorant of what was happening. And that screencap you posted PBL, of Randall in the background reaching out to Mike and then shutting his eyes, doesn't go along with him being cool with hurting him like that.
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Post by pitbulllady on Mar 12, 2014 22:59:14 GMT -5
I'll have to look at the grin again...but what if, in the time we saw it...it was FOR the OKs? Maybe he really DID think the RORs were going to give the OKs a good show. Maybe he was under the impression that "yeah...they've been doing good...maybe we ARE going to cheer for them. Sure, we'll win, probably, but they've done great." That that grin was a "here you go guys! Congrats!" Can imagine, after it all, Randall's not too happy about things...and Johnny, with his charisma, plays it off the "charity" angle of things like "well, that didn't go well, but you know what, the guys will be helping out for a charity. You know, puppies and orphans. That doesn't sound bad right?", convincing him that it "wasn't a bad thing after-all" ========================= Yes, that was something nobody considered before, till I thought of the idea in another post months or so ago. As we know, Randall did not do this on purpose...but Johnny and the others wouldn't know that he DOES have his loyalties. He may be loyal to the RORs, but he wasn't about to laugh at Wazowski for the fraternity prank. He may be loyal to Wazowski (loosely) because he was a former friend, but he's not going to cheat or fall shot in the games for him. As far as Johnny was at the time, he was heated that Randall screwed up (in this instance, to him, personally), and that the OKs MAY have a shot at winning (thereby breaking a moral-ground of Johnny's, that Wazowski wasn't cut out to be a scarer, something he, and "his father", would agree on. Randall, essentially, put his (Johnny's) way of thinking on the line. IF Randall had done well, Johnny knew he (personally) would wrap things up nicely.) Considering between MU and MI, Randall was a very talented and respected Scarer...it's not too hard of a guess that he tried to patch things up with Wazowski, even if his relationship to Sullivan was still bugging him. In fact, they all could have gotten on neutral ground......until "somehow" Sullivan got ahead in the numbers (amazing ain't it how a college drop-out who has FEWER years under his belt as a Scarer managed to knock off MI's golden boy at the time. The same person who cheated in his college Scare Game...oh yeah, and was practically arrested on campus by the CDA.) Here's that grin; note that even AFTER he's completely let go of the rope, Randall's eyes are still barely open, and given the combination of his location AND the fact that he can't see diddly squat anyway, it's highly unlikely that Randall really knew what was going on out there. He is behind a stage and there's a few other monsters hanging out back there, too, while the main floor is packed. Randall can hear Johnny praising the ROR's, so that's all he knows is going on out on the floor, and it isn't stretching it that he might very well have been grinning because he was happy that Mike had made it and was getting recognition! Randall might very well have also been told that all of the fraternities, including the OK's, were participating in that "charity", and for all he knew, that photo had been taken with their full cooperation! After all, all of them in the photo except for Mike and Sulley ARE smiling(especially Art, who seemed to be really into this, lol, bless him), and there's nothing in their expressions to indicate that they're angry or upset. That could explain why Randall has that smug little smile on his face when the OK's first show up at that "charity fundraiser"; he's pleased to be a part of a good thing, after all, and it's not until he hears from Mike that this was NOT done with their permission that he realizes that this was not just an innocent collaboration between the fraternities and sororities, that the OK's were victims of a nasty prank, and we see that smile vanish and see it replaced by that reproachful look directed at Johnny from behind his back. pitbulllady
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