|
Post by RandallBoggs on Jul 26, 2013 18:33:58 GMT -5
*folds arms* 12 years and you think that hm?
It's been at least a year movie-time. Randall would have already realized it was a mistake to trust Waternoose. As for the extractor...it WAS a good idea. As far as I see the main bullet is his attempted murder of Sullivan and Wazowski when he snapped. Of course that's kind of balanced out with the same attempted murder of them to him. As for Boo...probably still thinks of humans as animals (not far off, they mostly are)...and his initial treatment doesn't exactly bolster confidence of things. But, as we've seen, he never intended to harm Boo in the first place. Revealing, in word, that he didn't IS something that should happen. To say Randall will come back all forgiving and "I'm sorry" is really cheap. His life has been one struggle after another and in the end, when he couldn't take it anymore, he got tossed out of his world, beaten nearly to death...and THAT'S something that should be easily forgiven? No...it's not that easy. Randall's hurting, physically and emotionally...and he may be on a clock of sorts.
And...you probably just ignored when I said that one theory is that it's THANKS to RANDALL that SULLIVAN'S PROBLEMS are coped with in sequel material. Along with that theory, he initially wants revenge, but realizes that he honestly can't win against the two and does something he hasn't tried...gives up. Sullivan and Wazowski, and actually Celia as well, ALL have their own issues going on, and Randall comes into the mix, affecting ALL of them (strangely from worse-to-better).
|
|
|
Post by pitbulllady on Jul 26, 2013 19:14:06 GMT -5
*folds arms* 12 years and you think that hm? It's been at least a year movie-time. Randall would have already realized it was a mistake to trust Waternoose. As for the extractor...it WAS a good idea. As far as I see the main bullet is his attempted murder of Sullivan and Wazowski when he snapped. Of course that's kind of balanced out with the same attempted murder of them to him. As for Boo...probably still thinks of humans as animals (not far off, they mostly are)...and his initial treatment doesn't exactly bolster confidence of things. But, as we've seen, he never intended to harm Boo in the first place. Revealing, in word, that he didn't IS something that should happen. To say Randall will come back all forgiving and "I'm sorry" is really cheap. His life has been one struggle after another and in the end, when he couldn't take it anymore, he got tossed out of his world, beaten nearly to death...and THAT'S something that should be easily forgiven? No...it's not that easy. Randall's hurting, physically and emotionally...and he may be on a clock of sorts. And...you probably just ignored when I said that one theory is that it's THANKS to RANDALL that SULLIVAN'S PROBLEMS are coped with in sequel material. Along with that theory, he initially wants revenge, but realizes that he honestly can't win against the two and does something he hasn't tried...gives up. Sullivan and Wazowski, and actually Celia as well, ALL have their own issues going on, and Randall comes into the mix, affecting ALL of them (strangely from worse-to-better). No, but we have to understand that Pixar isn't just going to make a movie for US. It has to appeal to all the fans, including those those who think that Mike and Sulley are the greatest guys ever, so there will HAVE to be some sort of resolution between Mike, Randall and Sulley. Either that, or it's make him a complete villain. We have to think about what people who AREN'T Randall fans would pay to see, too. Yes, it would be cheap just to have everyone engage in a group hug, say, "I'm sorry", etc., so there's got to be real character development, and a REASON for the three of them reaching some sort of reconciliation, perhaps being forced to cooperate and in the process, learning more about one another. No one is going to buy Randall just walking up and saying, "OK, I'm sorry guys, and I forgive you for trying to kill ME". There has to be a major catalyst there for any understanding to occur, BUT it is either THAT, or having him as a real villain, a real threat that must be defeated and eliminated, or just leaving him out completely as though he never existed and just letting people believe whatever they want about his fate. I don't see Pixar just making a Randall movie about him trying to survive and heal and NOT having Mike and Sulley involved. Merchandise and books aside, MU, as a movie, hurt almost as much as it helped, because it really elevated Mike's image and Randall is seen, unfortunately, as someone who "betrayed" Mike and turned on him to become one of the "cool kids". A lot of people do see that as evidence that Randall was always a jerk, at the very least, while Mike was dedicated, determined, brave and all those other wonderful adjectives in the face of bullying and everyone treating HIM badly. It's really going to take a very believable character arc for Randall to offset that. Honestly, I do think that this is where bringing BOO back into the picture as that catalyst I mentioned would work well, because if people see that Randall can acknowledge that he did HER wrong, and she forgives HIM, that would set the stage in most people's minds for him not being just someone who became evil beyond redemption. pitbulllady
|
|
|
Post by RandallBoggs on Jul 26, 2013 19:29:09 GMT -5
You kind of...ignored me again in relation to the others. Strange...
Ahem. The story involves Randall more, yes, more central, but it's not all about him. Sullivan, Wazowski/Celia, and yes Boo, have their own issues. The thing IS...it's what RANDALL contributes to THEIR stories that starts to fix things. For instance...
Sullivan is in a job he is NOT trained and NOT qualified for. He's in the CEO position to keep this laugh energy idea up and working. It is NOT an openly accepted power source, since Scareing has been around for so long and is a basis on their society. He might be respected by the employees who LIKE the change....but he is ALSO dealing with those who don't. THOUSANDS of scarers-to-be are realizing that their future jobs may be in jeapordy...people who dislike humans (aside from a source of power) will find the idea of ENTERTAINING them appauling and dangerous. Monsters who still believe humans are toxic would also considering this a more dangerous profession than it was before. That's of course not mention being CEO...Sullivan not only deals with that backlash, but also the work load and demanding performance issued by such a position. He becomes tired, "crabby", and in able to focus on the relationships he once had. He doesn't have time for family or friends or to form tighter relationships with people, and he fears that he may adopt some traits from Waternoose, of which he surely doesn't want to turn into. Of course there's also the third issue. As a good person, Sullivan's dealing with guilt about what he did to Randall. Being around Boo as a source of encouragement, he's reminded about him a lot just from association. Add in the stress of his job, and Sullivan starts having hallucinations of being haunted by him.
When Randall comes into the mix later on, and Sullivan hints at his own troubles, Randall berates him like no tomorrow. "What are YOU complaining about!? Oh what, the golden child Sullivan thinks his life is bad now? Do you have ANY idea what I would give to-! You have a family! You have respect from others! You have a friends! You think your life is worse off!?"
Maybe not the right lines, had better ones written down somewhere...but when Randall comes in, he starts laying down the line of things that Sullivan takes for granted. Sullivan's not able to...but Randall can because he's wanted, needed, the those things. Randall inadvertently HELPS Sullivan by insulting him. We, including others, see that Randall had had to do things on his own and has an appreciation for things that Sullivan takes for granted. And by inadvertently helping Sullivan, he's shown in a better light.
As for Boo, there's a main moment there too...a rather...touching moment that after certain events, she gives him something he hasn't been given in a long time. Needless to say, he's shocked at it and is unsure what to do. In the end, he returns the gesture and apologies for what he did. He's not exactly sure why, but figures he has a better understanding of things...now that he's not getting his life thrown in the frying pan.
|
|
|
Post by pitbulllady on Jul 26, 2013 20:02:34 GMT -5
You kind of...ignored me again in relation to the others. Strange... Ahem. The story involves Randall more, yes, more central, but it's not all about him. Sullivan, Wazowski/Celia, and yes Boo, have their own issues. The thing IS...it's what RANDALL contributes to THEIR stories that starts to fix things. For instance... Sullivan is in a job he is NOT trained and NOT qualified for. He's in the CEO position to keep this laugh energy idea up and working. It is NOT an openly accepted power source, since Scareing has been around for so long and is a basis on their society. He might be respected by the employees who LIKE the change....but he is ALSO dealing with those who don't. THOUSANDS of scarers-to-be are realizing that their future jobs may be in jeapordy...people who dislike humans (aside from a source of power) will find the idea of ENTERTAINING them appauling and dangerous. Monsters who still believe humans are toxic would also considering this a more dangerous profession than it was before. That's of course not mention being CEO...Sullivan not only deals with that backlash, but also the work load and demanding performance issued by such a position. He becomes tired, "crabby", and in able to focus on the relationships he once had. He doesn't have time for family or friends or to form tighter relationships with people, and he fears that he may adopt some traits from Waternoose, of which he surely doesn't want to turn into. Of course there's also the third issue. As a good person, Sullivan's dealing with guilt about what he did to Randall. Being around Boo as a source of encouragement, he's reminded about him a lot just from association. Add in the stress of his job, and Sullivan starts having hallucinations of being haunted by him. When Randall comes into the mix later on, and Sullivan hints at his own troubles, Randall berates him like no tomorrow. "What are YOU complaining about!? Oh what, the golden child Sullivan thinks his life is bad now? Do you have ANY idea what I would give to-! You have a family! You have respect from others! You have a friends! You think your life is worse off!?" Maybe not the right lines, had better ones written down somewhere...but when Randall comes in, he starts laying down the line of things that Sullivan takes for granted. Sullivan's not able to...but Randall can because he's wanted, needed, the those things. Randall inadvertently HELPS Sullivan by insulting him. We, including others, see that Randall had had to do things on his own and has an appreciation for things that Sullivan takes for granted. And by inadvertently helping Sullivan, he's shown in a better light. As for Boo, there's a main moment there too...a rather...touching moment that after certain events, she gives him something he hasn't been given in a long time. Needless to say, he's shocked at it and is unsure what to do. In the end, he returns the gesture and apologies for what he did. He's not exactly sure why, but figures he has a better understanding of things...now that he's not getting his life thrown in the frying pan. But there has to be a REASON to bring Randall back in the first place. WE know, logically, that Sullivan isn't cut out for that job of CEO, but again, we also have to concede that a sequel has to be made for a lot of different fans. Randall has to do more than just inadvertently help Sulley by just showing up and chewing him out and making Sulley see the things he now takes for granted. I mean, basically by building the Scream Extractor and planning to bring in Boo as a test subject, Randall ALREADY helped Sulley get to where he is now because had Randall not done those things, Sulley never would have discovered that Laughter is stronger than Scream and never would have been appointed CEO in the first place. People in general aren't going to buy Randall just showing up, chewing Sullivan out and then leaving, no matter what this means for Sulley. They aren't going to pay to see that, as it would be anticlimactic. The only way that the majority of fans are going to see Randall "in a better light" is for him to own up to the wrongs HE did and for there to be some degree of at least mutual acceptance between him and two main protagonists, Mike and Sulley. There HAS to be a resolution of that conflict, one way or the other. If the three of them do not at least manage to to find reason to get along to some extent, then the majority of the audience isn't going to believe that Randall is just going to drop all that happened and NOT try to harm them at some point. He is basically going to have to PROVE his good intentions, in a big way, not merely agree to disagree, and it's going to take a lot more than just inadvertently making Sulley appreciate the good things HE has to convince the majority of fans that Randall is really a good guy, after all. Randall will have to prove that he's on Mike and Sulley's side otherwise most people will not simply accept that he is or ever was good. He can't just show up, have some heated argument with Sulley, and walk away. Randall will forever been seen as the enemy of Mike and Sulley and a potential threat unless he can prove otherwise. Like I said, MU hurt us as much as it helped, because now there are all these people who cannot understand why Randall did what he did, joining ROR and participating in that prank, and these people just see that as evidence that Randall was always mean and always put social status above everything else, including his non-existent "friendship" with Mike. Part of what Pixar did, intentional or not, that made Randall look so bad was to make MIKE look so wonderful to the average movie fan. It's going to take a lot to undo all that, and just showing how much Randall has suffered won't cut it because there are still a LOT of people who WANT him to suffer, want him to DIE, horribly, for no other reason now than because he "abandoned" poor widdle Mike! pitbulllady
|
|
|
Post by RandallBoggs on Jul 26, 2013 20:12:06 GMT -5
And that's a main issue to figure out. Does he come back himself? Does Sullivan try to find him out of some form of guilt? Or is it just "movie-luck" and he so happens to be around Boo or the right door at the right time (given of course the millions that MI along goes through) Or is there some other reason? It's been a year-hence and it's unknown where Randall would be. Certainly not dead or the others are murderers no matter what can be said.
You really think limited when your in this mode...remind yourself I'm not some ignoramus you've dealt with on tumblr. I used Sullivan as an EXAMPLE. He's not the only one affected. Randall's tried being a good person before, and that failed epically. Getting that person out again, especially to the people who's affected his life so much and tried to kill him, isn't going to be easy. He's NOT going to admit about his own wrongs until the HEROES do. Sullivan, for one, has been taking punches Randall believes are literal (and later on, they are) and has never done anything to fix it. There's NO REASON for Randall to apologize for anything to them at the start. As far as he's concerned, they planned to kill (while Randall's was spur of the moments) and "suddenly" get REWARDED for it. He's outed again. Something's gotta give on the other side for Randall to break through things.
Randall's going to inadvertently help the others cope with their problems, and that's what's going to coax out HIS OWN self that he lost. The change is gradual and is sorta his main side-story around the other's.
|
|
|
Post by RandallBoggs on Jul 26, 2013 20:21:22 GMT -5
Of course, along with that example...it's under the premise (can be under others of course) that when Randall gets back, however he does, he SEES that things have changed. That somehow the Scare Floor is a Laugh Floor...that Wazowski is suddenly top comedian, and that Sullivan is, of all things, CEO. I can actually picture the scene of him looking up at some big picture or something of Sullivan as CEO (thumbs up?), with the camera on his back and he just starts laughing. It's like his laugh with Wazowski, a little sinister, but then it starts gradually becoming less so...to the point it's more of a depressing one as he turns and he's got this look of "how could this happen" written all of his face. And he does what most people wouldn't expect for a villain he just says "I can't win" and aims to just give up trying any more, even for the revenge he had been thinking on for awhile now. (Sullivan "cheats" at the Scare Games, becomes best friends with Wazowski at the same time, and embrasses the heck out of him, shattering his good intention-side...they aim to murder him and they get top positions at the company. Any time tangling with them, he get's the short end of the stick and they get rewarded) Of course things pick up a little bit when Celia comes into the picture...
|
|
|
Post by doodlebug on Jul 28, 2013 15:24:54 GMT -5
Hey guys been reading this thread with interest for a while now. I agree with certain points everyone has given to a degree, and Lizardgirl, with the topic title, It does seem clear that they really were dithering between "fanservice" for the character and then trying not to make him *too* sympathetic/appealing (failed on me hah), given the hindsight of MI (though LG, we've already talked a bit about that!).
When you're talking about the idea of Randall's role in a sequel to MI I get really anxious/skeptical/excited all at once. I can see all the possibilities, and the actual believability of Randall having some "reform" is really possible in my mind, but at the same time it's got to go some way in convincing a casual fan, like PBL said, since there are many Mike and Sulley fans out there (I love Sulley too!) who just don't like Randall, end of. I can see their viewpoint too, that's fine.
And if Randall was to come round, I think it would need to be something major obviously, not just some anti-climactic "oh hey, I guess I'm back", sort of deal. Yeah there would need to be a gradual change in his nature, but I feel like we'd need a significant plot point to trigger an actual shift in his behaviour. Like the build up to a moment he has to make a choice about something that will matter. This all sounds vague and cliche movie-like, but I'm not thinking so much on a precise plot, but more the way Randall would need to be portrayed. Honestly I don't think he's as down-trodden as some people make out. I do think he was a massive jerk in MI, not going to apologise, just my opinion, but at the same time I can also see the moments in that film where he is sympathetic, and has depth. That's why I love him, and why I'm hopeful of his coming round to the side of good again.
MU is intriguing in that it did show us he was originally a sweet guy, and that's why I am hopeful about this sequel idea. If not, well, I will be severely disappointed to be honest.
|
|
|
Post by pitbulllady on Jul 28, 2013 17:02:16 GMT -5
Exactly, Doodlebug-the ONLY reason Pixar would have in bringing Randall back for a sequel would have to involve a major plot point, and it cannot just be for fanservice, either. As many fans as he has, we're still outnumbered by the Mike and Sulley fans, especially the Mike fans now that they've seen MU. We have to forget our own fanfiction stories and fan art and look at it from the perspective of PIXAR. THEY have to make a product that will appeal to a large number of fans, not just Randall's fans, and will be believable in terms of story. I've already explained THEIR three options: A)bring Randall back as an all-out villain, beyond redemption, no good left in him at all, and have Mike and Sulley defeat/destroy him again B)bring Randall back starting out as an antagonist and have him undergo a major character arc through some big plot point that serves as a catalyst for this change of heart/attitude, during which he DOES "bury the hatchet" with his two former rivals, or C)never mention Randall again and leave it up to the fans to make up their own minds what ultimately happened to him. For the latter, those who believe he was killed can either accept the idea of Mike and Sulley being cold-blooded murderers or heroes who did what had to be done to rid their world of a terrible evil force. Those who want to believe Randall is still alive somewhere in the Human World can do the same with regards to Mike and Sulley, only make that ATTEMPTED murderers. The CANNOT just bring Randall back and have some angsty confrontation between him and Sulley, in which Sulley is going to be inflicted with all this guilt and Randall is then just going to walk away and go have his pity party all by himself, because that will NOT resolve anything whatsoever. That is STILL going to leave Randall looking like a major douche-bag to most fans of the franchise. The majority of the fans of this franchise will STILL believe Randall to be evil and selfish and will still believe that he is going to do something horrific down the line and they will still sympathize with Sulley and will NOT feel his guilt is justified. There HAS to be resolution, HAS to be some sort of reconciliation/peace-making between Randall and Mike and Sulley IF the majority of the people who pay to see Pixar's movies are going to leave that theater feeling that Randall has truly changed for the better and is not a threat. For this to happen, RANDALL is going to have to own up to the things HE did and admit HE was wrong, because HE is the "hard-sell" here. Many of the fans don't see anything wrong at all with what Mike and Sulley did to Randall, whether or not WE agree with them. Randall is the one that they hate or feel ambivalent towards, so he's going to have to be the one who puts forth the most effort. It's not about what WE want to see happen so much as what the rest of the MI/MU fandom will accept and pay to see. There's already some who are accusing Pixar of just sort of sticking Randall in MU as no more than fanservice to his fans, and if they do that again-just put him in a movie just to show him, without involving him in a big,climactic way-that's really going to anger a lot of Pixar fans. I don't think that the studio is going to risk that.
pitbulllady
|
|
|
Post by RandallBoggs on Jul 29, 2013 18:07:35 GMT -5
As explained heh heh.
|
|