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Post by pitbulllady on Oct 17, 2010 14:48:37 GMT -5
We've discussed here from time to time the odds of Sulley's phenomenal success as a Scarer and Employee, and I've argued that there HAD to be something behind it other than dumb luck or raw talent, something which Sulley himself might not have even been aware of or thought much about, although Randall most likely thought about a LOT. Well, with the help of a math geek acquaintance of mine who works for a regional educational outreach outfit, I actually sat down and calculated Sulley's odd of being Employee of the Month, for 11 months straight, which he was at the time of the movie.
Now, thanks to another member for posting this awhile back, courtesy of the "Monsters, Inc. Employee Manual"(which I owned, but have misplaced), we know that the company has 120 Scare Floors, each employing 1,580 Scarers at once, working round-the-clock in three shifts. This means that at any given moment, there are(or rather, WERE, prior to Laugh conversion) 189,600 Scarers working there, and with three shifts, this means that in any one given 24-hour period, there are 568,800 Scarers working in that one factory. NOTE: this does NOT include all the OTHER employees, like the executives or the secretaries and assistants and Monster Resources Dept. and nurses/first aid, Workman's Comp folks, insurance, janitors, cafeteria staff, linemons(this IS a power company, after all), Maintainance, Research and Development, clerks, receptionists, payroll(everyone's favorites), etc.,-all the countless souls who keep a business functioning, which would of course raise that number by several thousand, possibly several HUNDRED-thousand, more employees. For the sake of statistics, I'll just stick with Scarers, since their actual numbers are known.
In an average 30-day month, this means that the odds of being named SCARER of the Month are 17,064,000:1 AGAINST. In an eleven-month(330-day)period, the odds of being chosen Scarer of the Month, each of those months, is 5,631,120,000:1 AGAINST, and those odds probably would be at least 10 times that when you count all the other employees, and yet we are supposed to believe that Sulley pulled it off, on his own, for 11 months straight? To put that in perspective, the currrent odds of winning the US national Powerball Jackpot is 195,249,054:1 against, and odds of winning the second-place Powerball prize of $200,000,000.00 is roughly equal to that of a Scarer at MI being named SCARER of the Month for 11 months straight. This means that Sulley is beating or equalling Powerball odds each month he is named EMPLOYEE of the Month...and there are STILL people who think he did it all just by being that great a Scarer and such a wonderful guy, or who still question why Randall would be upset about it and feel that Randall was out-of-line to do so?
pitbulllady
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Post by RandallBoggs on Oct 17, 2010 18:22:34 GMT -5
While there is a "Scarer of the Month", there is also "Assistant of the Month", which Wazowski himself has actually won. However, regardless if there are other "of the Months" for other employee "bundles", Scarers again seem to be Monsters Inc.'s pride forerunners, hence why their pictures are placed up in the lobby for all to see.
What is perhaps the most confounding (though not really) thing is the fact that Randall was Sullivan and Wazowski's trainer. Hence they started at 0 while Randall, having been named a veteran in the field at the point, would have very high numbers. But in a short period they managed to equal AND surpass him even when he was at the top of his game.
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Leopardstream
Randall's Skivvy (0-299)
No one wants cake? OKAY! *shoves cake in mouth*
Posts: 261
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Post by Leopardstream on Oct 18, 2010 18:52:40 GMT -5
all I have to say is that it's impossible to win Scarer or whatever for the some time over and over and over and over!
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Post by pitbulllady on Oct 18, 2010 19:23:44 GMT -5
all I have to say is that it's impossible to win Scarer or whatever for the some time over and over and over and over! And YET...James P. Sullivan did just THAT, for 11 months straight, not just SCARER of the Month, but EMPLOYEE of the Month! AND, it was just a pure coincidence that he happened to be buddies with the company's CEO. And the moon is made of green cheese, and there's a blue unicorn that lives on the other side. But of course, we are supposed to believe that the only reason that Randall was upset about this was because he was such an awful meanie and hated Sulley just for being such a wonderful, talented guy. It makes me wonder if Randall was either the only intelligent person working at that factory who could put two and two together, OR that he was the only one honest enough to at least admit how he really felt about Sulley's astounding success. pitbulllady
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Post by RandallBoggs on Oct 18, 2010 19:35:36 GMT -5
Probably both. Given his experiences, knowing humans weren't toxic is probably one of many things he has a leg (or four) up on everybody else. Sure, make them all ignorant, but some are probably not too bright to "go against the CEO's current favorite". Maybe that's what it is. Maybe being under Waternoose's wing made everybody avoid the topic of Sullivan's sudden and stable success. Since Randall knew the former's "little secret", he's not going to leave his opinons to himself on the matter.
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Post by mistica0christina on Oct 18, 2010 23:10:59 GMT -5
all I have to say is that it's impossible to win Scarer or whatever for the some time over and over and over and over! Tell that to SpongeBob who won employee of the month who knows how many times in a row!
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Post by pitbulllady on Oct 19, 2010 5:15:55 GMT -5
Yeah, but how many workers does the Krusty Krab employ? It's like our local CVS Pharmacy, which has like, four employees not counting the two pharmacists, so it's no shock that one person is awarded Employee of the Month more often. When you have that sort of thing going on in a huge corporation, though, it's like that Old-Skool rap song, "Things That Make You Go Hmmmmm..."
pitbulllady
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Post by mentalguru on Oct 19, 2010 14:38:22 GMT -5
Of course other things have to be accounted for in relation to that, not EVERY scarer has an equal shot after all- let's face it not all the scarers have the same level of talent or probably even the same work ethic etc. So it wouldn't be as low as THAT precisely- there are other factors to be taken into account.
A weird thing about competetion as a way to apire people to work harder also is that sometimes it can backfire- those who feel they can't win even if they try... might not bother and just... kind of not work as hard. That would be a potential other consequence of Sulley winning a lot more often- some people think 'Eh why bother?' and instead it more or less seems to become a two horse race between him and Randall- and as Randall becomes less popular, if he ever was popular, they want Sulley to win since he's a nice guy. So called incentives can actually be turned on their head and discourage people too.
It would not be too daunting if say Sulley won a few months though, like say three that year scattered throughout. Someone pretty dang talented in a large company could still do that after all. Maybe two of Randall or something, and the rest shared among a host of other scarers who did something good.
In the end really- it was a writing mistake or otherwise. They didn't see it as weird when they put it up. Just what's there, like other things they didn't wish to infer but still have in canon.
Eleven months... it's a little excessive to say the least- and well, might have been even MORE than that, we only saw that year after all.
That being said the number of times is pretty bizarre all the same. Though to be honest FEW of the total numbers would make sense unless they say started off on zero at the start of the year even disregarding the whole thing with Sulley's example door and Randall's example door points not being the same. Some of those levels we see are too low for that to be built upon in years and years, and I somehow doubt there are THAT many newbies...
(Though interesting thought if so... high work turnover rate for a variety of reasons? Mmmm. Maybe Sulley wasn't even the newest on the floor for example).
(Question how many points did Sulley and Randlal get for that one door? I know Randall got something like half... maybe inbetween could be considered an average if there was something up and start from there... I can't remember how many points they had in total though so maybe the idea of them being the points they had that YEAR isn't possible.)
Perhaps the employee of the month was the one who also got the most screams per month OVERALL. (Though given the weirdest with the numbers...). Even if there were a few days where someone else had overtaken for a little while, by the end of the month, Sulley seemingly steamed ahead and got it. (Though little unfair, someone could miss out after holding out for a while just to have someone get ahead in two days or something... bah. Honestly, other things should count besides total numbers anyway.).
Though I really think they should have has a yearly prize or something to that effect to the monster with the least shredded doors- they might not be the same person after all and they also have to think about those monsters which keep an individual kid as a tap of energy longer than simply the fast scream.
In all honesty I also think the only way Sulley gaining the all time scare record when he started later than Randall would be if it was a mistake and its more or less the most scream/per year is judged by what the record is on, but the title says otherwise.
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Post by RandallBoggs on Oct 19, 2010 18:07:43 GMT -5
Well considering the Krusty Crab had only...two employees aside from the boss.... --------- In far-thought, Sullivan got around 100 for his full canister while Randall got around 70. Now, one thing to take into account is that Randall wasn't at the top of his game, even if he thought he was, considering his early exhaustion brought on by all the "other work" he had to do.
Something else to take into account is that Randall became a veteran rather quickly. If you were to think that on average he would have graduated school at 17/18, and then maybe a few years of college, and then training, he would have had a couple of years to get up to veteran (thus Top Scarer) status. And by THEN, he was borrowed to train Sullivan and Wazowski. Which means in perhaps 1-3 years (3 being a stretch), Sullivan managed to TOP Randall's already high score and STAY that way.
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Post by mistica0christina on Oct 19, 2010 20:20:47 GMT -5
I'll just go with Pixar's explaination in which they made Sulley top scarer and Randall second to add to the plot. Besides, according to their dvd commentary, they actually figured out the math of how much a scream would equal to in points and calculating how many kids a monster had to scare to get to this and this amount...Pixar did the math on their own and according to them, it makes sense. It's their movie so I'm going with their explaination because to me that's canon.
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Post by mentalguru on Oct 20, 2010 4:01:43 GMT -5
I agree with you partially. I though stick to the idea that canon is only what's there in the movie, and the various interesting extrapolations which fit can be fascinating though. Creator intent is simply interesting to me even when they mess up a little.
Pretty much agree (on the plot thing), they wanted it to make sense of course, their intent is that Sulley is winning and he's Scarer of the month for eleven months and it's not strange at all- they did not intend for anything else to be taken from it obviously... but didn't one of Randall's doors onley equal half the points of Sulley's despite them both filling a canister?
I think they messed up a little TBH. It was a mistake on their part. Of course, that just makes things more interesting unintentionally! We're trying to make sense of the idea of this in-universe really in the end.
Of course I just thought of another explanation (if the points really are from them beginning)- perhaps when Randall was a TRAINER all his past points became a moot point for instance when he started again and any suspicions would be low if there were any.
(Is it an extended canon fact that Sulley was his last student or one of his last students or not?)
I mean to say is that PERHAPS Randall was a scarer for a few years... but then became a FULL time trainer for a while. I know a lot of times it seems as if the assumption is that he scarer and trained part time... but did he really? Or is that just the assumption?
Then soon after/just before/ same time when Sulley completed his training he started to scare again- and his numbers started at zero like he was brand new even though he wasn't- perhaps there is some rule like that or as soon as someone stops scaring, unless they're a record breaker no-one cares to keep files beyond 'they're a very good scarer'. That might not seem fair but it's another explanation perhaps and even if something was screwy with the points people wouldn't be as likely to be as supicious- and it's more believable in general anyway for Sulley to pass him by in that senario in-universe.
(Unless they all start at zero at say the start of the year or something for everyone... but once again I don't know the point levels/mathmatics to know if that's a viable idea or not.)
Of course the problem is that that makes the 'all time scare record' all screwy itself and that Randall would have 'technically' passed it by- just that his past points didn't count, and that makes little sense based on the title.
Unless of course making Randall a trainer and previous top scarer and Sulley having come a fair bit later, an -extended- canon fact, be retconned- I'm doubtful over the idea of Pixar keeping track of that sort of thing, so many of their extended canon things conflict with one another- and while this is one of the few things which has yet to be contradicted I'm pretty sure they didn't think of the weirdness involved with the timescales etc. when Sulley started later.
Let's face it, Monsters Inc and its extended counterparts has quite a few mistakes. It wouldn't surprise me if the extended canon thing of Randall being his trainer was completely contradicted in the sequel if pasts are talked about at all.
Before I heard of Randall being his trainer, while first watching the movie, I kind of assumed Randall was newer than Sulley and simply annoyed (among other things) he wasn't knocking off the person who has been top in a while yet was a pretty good rival for someone who has started later, and Randall was simply too impatient. Like Sulley was the (slightly) more experienced scarer and Randall was the newer one who was pretty close to beating him but not... QUITE making it- and that Sulley might have even coasted a little with Mike at first (he did try, just not as big on the training and other things you know?) but Randall meant Mike got more competitive and things got interesting. Who knows? They might go for that sort of thing in the sequel instead. It wouldn't surprise me- they've ignored many other things of extended canon.
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Post by pitbulllady on Oct 20, 2010 5:30:58 GMT -5
I have not played the game in which Randall supposedly is shown as Sulley and Mike's trainer, so all I can do is take the word of RB, who is the one who has maintained that. Perhaps someone else here, who knows games, should play that game and judge whether or not this is actually the case. Randall DOES seem awfully young to me to have become a veteran Scarer by his early 20s. Skill or no skill, he also is clearly quite immature, which would interfere with him being a trainer/mentor to someone much older than he is. Not saying it didn't happen, but that's one of those things I'd love to see someone else's interpretation on.
That said, I'm not one to say, "well, they made the movie, so whatever they say is right". Sorry, that does not sit well with me at all! There are a LOT of mistakes and problems with this movie, from a logical, and ethical, perspective. Just because Pixar wants me to put my mind in neutral and flush my own morals down the toilet, doesn't mean I'm going to do that.
pitbulllady
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Post by mistica0christina on Oct 20, 2010 11:41:33 GMT -5
I have not played the game in which Randall supposedly is shown as Sulley and Mike's trainer, so all I can do is take the word of RB, who is the one who has maintained that. Perhaps someone else here, who knows games, should play that game and judge whether or not this is actually the case. Randall DOES seem awfully young to me to have become a veteran Scarer by his early 20s. Skill or no skill, he also is clearly quite immature, which would interfere with him being a trainer/mentor to someone much older than he is. Not saying it didn't happen, but that's one of those things I'd love to see someone else's interpretation on. That said, I'm not one to say, "well, they made the movie, so whatever they say is right". Sorry, that does not sit well with me at all! There are a LOT of mistakes and problems with this movie, from a logical, and ethical, perspective. Just because Pixar wants me to put my mind in neutral and flush my own morals down the toilet, doesn't mean I'm going to do that. pitbulllady A good majority of the MI games were mostly released for Sony's PS and PS2 more than likely because that was the main money maker at the time. I hate to say it but when people think Nintendo, they think "kids only" and sometimes there are some bada$$ awsome games that I think would have done wonderful on a Nintendo console but the company that releases them won't do that because they want to make a profit from their merchandising so I'm afraid that the only one you can depend on for these games is only RB. If I actually owned any console that wasn't Nintendo then I wouldn't mind trying to find a copy of this game and playing it but I can't and as far as I know of, not everyone here are really gamers so unless you can find gameplay on Youtube, I've got nothing. *sighs* Here's the way I see it, I only really question or make theories when there is no explaination, whether it's in the film's canon or from the creators of it themselves. Example: Lock, Shock, and Barrel's origins are NEVER explained and this is one thing from TNBC that fans are always questioning, many fans of Burton's have theories of where the trio came from, how they became involved with Oogie Boogie and so on and to me, because Burton never explained any of their origins then to me, that gives reason to make theories and question it because there is no actual answers there. The case with the numbers for me is not because it is explained, even when it's not in the film, it's explained in commentary and by the ones who created it so what theories can you make when the answers are basically there. MG, this is why I really don't consider Disney games canon, when it comes to game canon and games in general, Disney clearly failed that class when it comes to making game canon and movie canon make sense! They seem to not be able to do it very well and even when they purposefully make sequels and prequels to films in the form of a game, there is always contradictions because they just don't do well in that area.....and that is why their games always get low scores from game reviewers...they don't do well with them. Maybe if we're lucky, Disney could prove me wrong with Epic Mickey but it still doesn't mean that they can't fail in that area...and I'm done on this thread, you guys want to debate numbers or whatever, fine by me.
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Post by RandallBoggs on Oct 20, 2010 18:58:08 GMT -5
You are right there Mental. They both filled their canisters to full, yet their points were different. And this wasn't simple one digits, this was nearly a 30% drop. Despite Randall's exhaustion, the points from a full canister of his would not be affected. How many doors he might do, that might be affected, but not his ability to scare up a full canister.
Randall's loaning as a trainer, yet going back to scareing....his points from that time period is what may confuse someone. Unsure how it's handled. But the fact he was on loan instead of employeed directly means he was still technically a scarer at Monsters Inc....
Given that training technically takes 2 years, an experienced scarer can cut that in half the time (Randall himself could have done this). And I'd like to think Sullivan comes from a Scarer family so he naturally had talent. But yes I'd like to think Sullivan was one of his last students. In fact I think Sullivan and Wazowski might have been his only ones. Side note, Waternoose was there at their orientation and award ceremonies. Why'd I bring that up? No reason....maybe.
Of course...on his off days, Randall might have used facilities at the training complex to "keep his numbers up".
One thing to note is that Randall was definetly NOT jealous. So him having ALWAYS been below Sullivan is not so credible. A jealous person would have gone in an outrage of self-egoness when they passed their "rival". Randall didn't. We SEE this when he gets on top, again. He does not go up giving high fives and announcing his superiority. He just stands, feeling good, winking with an "see, I can do it". Which is rather unlike Sullivan who goes for the high fiving. --------- I had unfortunately lost the manual that came with my PS version of Scare Island. However...I was lucky enough to obtain the PC version at a goodwill, and once again the manual. It clearly states that is a "professional" and "a veteran". And he is actually seeing in the game jogging around the main building. Funny enough game-wise he challenges the players to races. I...guess this means Randall was in part to the fitness part of being a scarer. Of course he also tosses down barrels at one point in a level (which is curiously the ONLY level which he appears in), which I guess interprets that he intends to challenge his trainees.
So far Scare Island is the only past-oriented material of M.I. So it's as close to something..."canon". And there are some things it helps make sense. ------------ Nobody knock Nintendo!!! 0_- ^0^ Seriously. Good times...Yoshi's Island...Zelda...
One thing I think we're forgetting. Didn't somebody say that Pixar considered their game material canon? Well to interpret this, that as long as it doesn't conflict with the film (such as the PS2's plot of randall "escaping" through a door and Waternoose fighting from inside this weird canon thing), it fits in somewhere.
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Post by pitbulllady on Oct 20, 2010 19:43:53 GMT -5
It sounds more like Randall's role in the game is that of a fitness trainer, rather than Scaring coach. I know of two instances in which trainers actually DO toss down barrels(55 gallon plastic drums)at trainees who are struggling to run up a steep incline, and that is during rigorous football practice and during basic training in military boot camp. Some of our JV football players told me about a football camp they had to attend over the summer in another county(you'd be hard-pressed to find a hill or incline of any sort in OUR county, unless it's either the landfill or a fire ant mound), where the coaches rolled barrels downhill at them as they ran up the hill, so they had to dodge or jump over the barrels to increase their stamina and improve their reaction times and reflexes, since those barrels could one day be opposing team members. Military trainees, I have to assume, go through this for the same reason, which makes me wonder if Randall does perhaps, have a military background. Here in our country, going into the some branch of the military is a good way, and for many, the ONLY way, to get a college education and pretty much be guaranteed a job when your tour is over. It could also have been where Randall got that background in mechanial /electrical engineering, and could explain how he did manage to become so successful at so young an age.
Back to the numbers, though. A full canister SHOULD have been worth the same number of points, no matter what. Full is full. If it had been just 1/3 full, yeah, I can see where that would be worth fewer points that full, but both Randall and Sulley filled their canisters, yet Randall's was worth fewer points. I don't care what Pixar says, it was WRONG, just like the whole thing with Mike and Sulley "banishing" Randall was wrong. THAT is why I would really love to sit down with the creative forces behind that movie and show them that, and tell them to justify it, and take a good, hard look at the messages it sends. Don't tell me that kids don't pick up on those messages, since I've had students that can't even read or write their own names, who were in self-contained "special needs" classes, who immediately picked up on how Randall got treated unfairly from the start, and how he had every reason to be upset. As RB pointed out, it was NOT "jealousy". If he'd just been jealous, for no reaon, he'd have either left and found work somewhere else before the whole Scream Extractor deal, or he'd requested to be transferred to a different Scare Floor. BUT, Randall obviously had sense enough to realize that he was not being treated fairly once Sulley came into the picture, and that there was something "fishy" going on, and he had every reason and every right to be upset about it. I know I would have been raising holy Hell, and most of the people I work with would have, too, no matter what a nice guy Sulley seemed to be. I don't care how good he was, or what Pixar had to say about it, it was wrong! The fact that they just want everyone to accept that at face value is quite demeaning, honestly. I thought that one of the things that was supposed to set them apart was that they didn't "talk down" to their audience, and make movies for that "lowest common denominator", but by just telling us in their commentary, "here's the numbers, Sulley is that good, and Randall is just a jealous SOD for no good reason", that is EXACTLY what they are doing, and I would have trouble telling them that. They have to put their pants on one leg at a time just like I do.
pitbulllady
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