Randall Thoughts and Theories

[Theophilus Hatta]

Hey guys~ It's been a long since I've been here (by the way, redesign looks great! ) and I've finally seen MU, which I loved. Really glad the drive-in sold out and we went to the theatre instead. It was well-worth seeing on the big-screen with surround-sound. I could gush forever about the effects and the backgrounds and the Mike/Sulley friendship and the aasdfjghklighting, but this is a Randall board, so I'll stick to gushing over him.

1)My first impression of Randy
WOW, I totally geeked out hearing his voice the first time. It was just so dorky and cute! And his handshake meeting Mike, ultra-adorable. I don't know if you guys noticed him using all four of his hands in that shake. So eager! So sweet. A bit disappointed that he ditched the glasses so fast, but Mike did have a good point.

2) Overall feeling of Randy's part
Really nice to see Randal being such a normal guy in the movie. I know a lot of people wanted to see a really tragic and depressing backstory, or see him be poor, or discriminated against for being scaley, but that seems kinda... cheap in terms of character creation. Too clean-cut and cliche.

But subtle peer-pressure? I thought that was a really clever direction to go. MU seems to be a pretty realistic movie about life. A desire to fit in and be popular/cool, and later joining ROR? Easy to see how that desire later morphs into a "be-the-best-of-the-best-winner" attitude.

2) ROR Randy
I liked it. No, really. I see a lot of posts calling it Randy's turn to darkness, but that doesn;t really wash. From a character point of view, it clicks. ROR is the best-- top grades, top scarers, top class-- everything Randy wants to be. And ROR doesn't take no dummies-- they had no problem kicking Sul out when his grades slipped-- so clearly our Randy is a scary, smart cupcake.

Overall, ROR is a really good frat. A lot of pre-movie speculation was on ROR cheating... which they never ever even attempted in the movie. (I think it was JOX who cheated the first event, and got DQ'd for it). The other popular suggestion was sabotage... While ROR pranked OK, there was no actual sabotage. The only injury was to OK's pride (their cute, cute pride). People point to Randy pulling the rope and smiling as proof he's betrayed Mike but honestly? It was a prank. Embarrassing prank, yes. Life-threatening, no.

If anything, OK sabotaged ROR in the Scare Games, what with Sulley's meddling with the final event.
So I say go Roar Omega Roar!

3) Bad Randy
I don't see it.

Honestly. Don't see it.

Randy seemed to have an ok relationship with everyone during his limited screentime. Flirted with HISS girls at the party, helped Mike with studying for Scare stuff (and Mike probably helped him offscreen), seemed cool with his ROR brothers (him getting bullied in ROR was a big worry but seems groundless thankfully), seemed cool with Mike after joining ROR.... When Mike asked Randy to join his team, it was last second in front of a crowd and Randy had already joined ROR's team. While bad for Mike, Randy suddenly joining OK? Out-of-Character. But the way Randy turned him down... from what I remember, he said something like "aw gee Mike, I already promised them I'd be on their team- don;t blow it for me" while he was walking over to ROR. He didn't yell, he seemed embarrassed to be called out like that and didn't want a big scene made. Understandable.

4) Vendetta on Sulley / Kicked from ROR
Again, whaaaaat?
I don't understand where people are coming from on this one.

ROR was mad they lost. Really understandable to see that coming-- last event, last scarer on the field, known for bringing home the glory, only two frats standing-- yeah, of course they'd yell at Randy. And they would probably yell just as much at Javier or Chad or Johnny if they had messed up the last event and gotten beat by the "loser" frat. But jumping to kicking Randy out? What? That seems like quite the extreme leap to me.

Swearing revenge on Sulley.... it seems people are taking the line way too seriously? Randy's tone of voice seemed almost playful to me, like "oh damn, you got me, but I'll so gunna win next time, haha". He even said it with a little grin! I think it's just meant to be a call-forward to MI, kinda a foreshadowing or maybe just a throwaway reference to MI.

5) Final Thoughts
I wish Randy had some more screentime.
Butt more than that, I wish the frats had a little more variation in their posing when their names were called before/after a Scare Event. A bit stale to watch them do the same movie poster pose again and again.

[pitbulllady]

I totally agree with a LOT of what you said, especially in not seeing that Randall had "turned evil" or "gone to the Dark Side" for joining ROR and pranking the OK's. Pranks are a hard cold FACT in college. If you can't take 'em or dish 'em out, better stay home, because you're GOING to be involved in pranks, some of which are a lot more extreme than what ROR did. That's just part of college culture.

Couple of points, mostly minor, that I couldn't quite get into, though, starting with the glasses. Yeah, THOSE glasses, as cute as they were, needed to go. The problem was, Mike didn't take into account that Randall wore those thick lenses for a reason: he had lousy eyesight! I'm sure that more-discreet frames were available that wouldn't have interfered with Randall's particular Scaring talent. I hate to think of someone going through most of their life not being able to see squat, poor guy!

Randall and ROR-yeah, there was the peer pressure, but that happens with ANY group, doesn't it? Someone is in charge, and everyone else follows. Even though the little girls on Tumblr don't want to admit it, they fall for peer pressure, too, and they love to gang up on like a pack of wild dogs. I can totally sympathize with Randall wanting to fit it, be popular and be accepted, just as I can sympathize with a starving person wanting to EAT-it's something that Randall has never had! Criticizing him for that is like attacking someone who is dead-broke, like ME, wanting to find a lot of money, seriously! In a way, they did help him with his confidence issues, since we see him gradually getting more relaxed and confident in the Scare Games, and obviously, as you pointed out, Randall had to have had good grades or he never could have gotten in. The requirements of being a Scare major AND maintaining a high GPA weren't Johnny's rules; those were ROR rules that were established long before any of the current membership seen in MU were even born, so even Johnny could not bend those rules. BUT...there WAS a downside for Randall being in ROR. For one thing, Randall didn't approach them, since it was well past Rush Week when people can apply to join fraternities or sororities. He would have been asked to join, which means that one of them, probably Mr. Worthington himself, approached Randall with the offer. Part of that was legit; ROR was now short of a member who could compete in the Scare Games after having to boot out Sulley, but the other part? NOT so legit. I am absolutely convinced that part of Johnny's motivation for asking Randall to join them was to isolate him from Mike. One of the things I found remarkable about Johnny is how observant he was, how he was always closely watching others and their interactions, and you can almost see the gears turning in that big head of his as he assesses the relationships between others and figures out how to use those to his advantage. Mike had already gotten on Johnny's bad side, which is NOT a nice place to be, but rather than do something as crass and "redneck" as beating Mike up, Johnny chose instead to take away the only person on campus even willing to speak to Mike and associate with him: Randall. And while we don't directly SEE any of the ROR members bullying Randall per se, it IS implied that they did. Randall NEVER speaks once he goes over to join them at the Scare Games sign-ups, until he says that line about never losing to Sullivan again. He never walks in front of Johnny or even alongside him, but is always at least somewhat behind him. He never speaks to Mike or looks him in the eye; in fact, I seriously believe that Johnny had forbidden him to associate with Mike at all. When Mike sees Randall at the sign-ups and tries to get him to join OK, Randall, of course, had no idea that Mike would have even BEEN there, let alone on a team, and Randall did not know WHICH team, since he was NOT THERE when Mike put himself in OK or when Mike made that deal with the Dean, so Randall does not honestly understand just WHY this is so important to Mike. He tells Mike, "sorry, Mike, but I'm already on a team" and shows off his ROR sweater, beaming happily. He then says, "I'm finally in with the cool kids, Mike!" At that moment, though, Johnny notices Randall is talking to "the Enemy", and calls out to him, "BOGGS!", actually slapping his own thigh as he says it in the same manner that you command a DOG to "heel". Randall nearly jumps out of his skin when he hears Johnny, because he KNOWS he's not supposed to be doing what he was just doing and he fears reprisal. THAT'S when he puts his hand up to his mouth in that conspiratorial way, suggesting a double-meaning to his next words: "please don't blow this for me, Mike". His words sound harsh, and all the Mike supporters use them to prove that Randall was always just a social-climbing little jerk who at that moment "betrayed" Mike, but that gesture says a lot, too, and really drives home the fact that Randall has no hard feelings towards Mike, but he's not allowed to speak to him publicly. There was more than a hint of "I'll talk to you later when these guys(ROR)aren't around". In another scene, the one where Johnny head-slaps Chet, watch Randall's face. Up until this point, he'd been looking down, avoiding Mike's gaze, and blinking a lot, like someone who is fighting back tears. In fact, when I saw the movie the second time, some girls of about 8-9 years old, who were in front of me, actually suggested that Randall was trying not to cry. But when Johnny slaps Chet, Randall's face goes from shock, to FEAR, an "OMG!" look, like he was afraid he might screw up and be next. It was very, very plain to me that Randall was never really happy once he was in ROR, and that he was definitely afraid of Johnny Worthington.

Now, the Scare Games. 100% agreed that ROR played honest and fair, in spite of hints that they would cheat or sabotage their opponents. Also agreed that ROR, NOT OK< was the legit winners, which is why Sulley handed the trophy to Johnny, but kicking Randall out because he lost? NOPE, not right at ALL! Randall had performed admirably in all of the competitions, and helped ROR get where they were, even though he was just a freshman. The ONLY reason he lost to Sulley is because SULLEY sabotaged RANDALL'S Scare, and SHOULD have been DQ'd. Unlike the "Avoid the Parent" competition in the Library, it was NOT specifically stated that the only goal was to scare the robot kid. In fact, there were no instances of any team messing up another teams's performance, so interfering with a rival in any of the competitions should have been grounds for elimination, but Sulley's stomping on the floor, which caused Randall to fall, was not questioned. That was the ONLY reason why Randall lost, not because of anything HE did wrong! Now, REGGIE ALSO lost his Scare competition, to Don, BUT Reggie did just screw up, big-time, due to clumsiness, stepping on a squeaky toy and falling on his face, and HE wasn't even a freshman! But Reggie doesn't get kicked out, does not get ridiculed or yelled out! Heck, until it was officially revealed the day after that the OK's win was not real, that Sulley had cheated, everyone thought that JOHNNY lost to Mike, but I can guarantee that NO ONE would have dared to call HIM out for it! Johnny intimidated others, and it wasn't just with little things like pranks, either. I have no doubt that he could and would back it up with force if and when he had to. Randall had probably dealt with guys like him since childhood and learned a painful lesson before: you do not cross guys like Johnny and expect not to pay a price. Kicking Randall out, for something that was not his fault at all, adding injury to insult on top of him being publicly ridiculed by thousands of spectators, something Randall feared even more than getting beaten up physically, especially after he'd done so well to bring his team THIS far on rather short notice, was completely uncalled for, and really drove home for me that fact that Johnny had really been just using Randall to get at Mike all along and had never really thought of him as a real member of ROR. THAT, honestly, is the one problem I have with Johnny. Most people focus on how he treated Mike, but Mike really called down that thunder on himself by challenging Johnny, again and again, and quite frankly got off easy considering what Johnny COULD have done to him. Johnny simply called a spade a spade; he KNEW, just as Dean Hardscrabble knew, that Mike was no Scarer, and was brutally honest in saying so. Where Johnny overstepped, in my opinion, was in recruiting Randall in order to isolate Mike, taking advantage of Randall's loneliness and his failure to get Mike to be a REAL friend, and later, in kicking Randall out of ROR.

I do not see Randall's promise to himself as "proof" that he hated Sullivan, or Mike(Mike especially). I DO think he was hurt by Mike's repeated rejection of friendship in favor of studying, made worse when he sees that Mike DID choose Sulley to be his friend and was willing to go to parties with Sulley and the OK guys...but not with Randall earlier. The REAL rivalry and resentment, though, does not start until they're working at MI, and Sulley starts his unrealistic rise to the top of the Scare Boards, when he didn't even graduate...and he just happens to be close friends with the CEO who had taken such personal interest in him. Knowing that Sullivan was a cheater before, Randall would have every reason to suspect that Sullivan's success now was due to dishonesty and cheating. Why WOULDN'T he be angry and bitter over THAT?

pitbulllady

[Theophilus Hatta]

I totally agree with a LOT of what you said, especially in not seeing that Randall had "turned evil" or "gone to the Dark Side" for joining ROR and pranking the OK's. Pranks are a hard cold FACT in college. If you can't take 'em or dish 'em out, better stay home, because you're GOING to be involved in pranks, some of which are a lot more extreme than what ROR did. That's just part of college culture.

Too bad there wasn’t a prank in retaliation. Sulley seemed the type in this movie, but I suppose Mike would care more about the win!

Couple of points, mostly minor, that I couldn't quite get into, though, starting with the glasses. Yeah, THOSE glasses, as cute as they were, needed to go. The problem was, Mike didn't take into account that Randall wore those thick lenses for a reason: he had lousy eyesight! I'm sure that more-discreet frames were available that wouldn't have interfered with Randall's particular Scaring talent. I hate to think of someone going through most of their life not being able to see squat, poor guy!

Poor Randy indeed. Ditching glasses entirely is a dumb move, but Mike is right about Scaring in them. Judging by the size of those puppies, contracts aren’t likely. I’m betting he’s severely farsighted. I don’t think he could keep any sort of frame and still do his scaring technique, unless he got Edna from ‘Incredibles’ to make them. And then there’s still the problem of the glass distorting the area… I suppose that wouldn’t matter as just in the dark, but still, probably easier to just ditch.

Randall and ROR-yeah, there was the peer pressure, but that happens with ANY group, doesn't it? Someone is in charge, and everyone else follows. Even though the little girls on Tumblr don't want to admit it, they fall for peer pressure, too, and they love to gang up on like a pack of wild dogs. I can totally sympathize with Randall wanting to fit it, be popular and be accepted, just as I can sympathize with a starving person wanting to EAT-it's something that Randall has never had! Criticizing him for that is like attacking someone who is dead-broke, like ME, wanting to find a lot of money, seriously! In a way, they did help him with his confidence issues, since we see him gradually getting more relaxed and confident in the Scare Games, and obviously, as you pointed out, Randall had to have had good grades or he never could have gotten in. The requirements of being a Scare major AND maintaining a high GPA weren't Johnny's rules; those were ROR rules that were established long before any of the current membership seen in MU were even born, so even Johnny could not bend those rules. BUT...there WAS a downside for Randall being in ROR. For one thing, Randall didn't approach them, since it was well past Rush Week when people can apply to join fraternities or sororities.

It was nice to see something as real and normal as peer pressure being used in a realistic way to dictate a character's actions, instead of some melodramtic nonsense.

Using the movie, only this is known: Sulley impressed ROR enough to get a trial run, Sulley wasn’t up to snuff, Sulley got kicked, spot was open again, Randy took the spot.

How do we know Randy never approached them though? He was at the party that night; he may have applied off-screen. Maybe put on some kind of waitlist? Plus, Rush Week is a whole week. That’s plenty of time to talk with them and check stuff out. Normally, frats are enormous—and the ROR house always seemed to have a bunch of dudes in it—it wouldn’t surprise me it there were much more than six members a semester. Even if you are only allowed six dudes, and there’s one open spot, there’s always one or two backups.

Why are you, pitbulllady, assuming it was Johnny who approached Randy? Randy really wanted to be with the cool kids and ROR are the coolest on campus.

I am absolutely convinced that part of Johnny's motivation for asking Randall to join them was to isolate him from Mike. One of the things I found remarkable about Johnny is how observant he was, how he was always closely watching others and their interactions, and you can almost see the gears turning in that big head of his as he assesses the relationships between others and figures out how to use those to his advantage.

Mike had already gotten on Johnny's bad side, which is NOT a nice place to be, but rather than do something as crass and "redneck" as beating Mike up, Johnny chose instead to take away the only person on campus even willing to speak to Mike and associate with him: Randall.

What? How are you leaping to this conclusion? Johnny was calling Sulley stupid because someone as unscary as Mike was beating Sulley and making ROR look bad. When Johnny first met Mike, he very clearly didn’t care about him and openly dismissed him from his mind by pointing him at OK.

Mike has no other friends… Probably true. The only reason you only see Mike and Randy together in shots is because they are friendly roommates in the same program. Randy is probably the one trying to get Mike to go out and have more fun, not just stay holed up studying all the time. The movie shows Mike’s goal is to be the best scarer, no matter what is takes. Mike says there is time for parties AFTER school, not during—so clearly making friends is not Mike’s priority in MU.

When has Johnny acted “crass and redneck” in the movie? Johnny is clearly old-money. He’s ROR, so he’s smart and scary, even if he does look like a meathead. He’s competitive and smarmy, not evil.

And while we don't directly SEE any of the ROR members bullying Randall per se, it IS implied that they did. Randall NEVER speaks once he goes over to join them at the Scare Games sign-ups, until he says that line about never losing to Sullivan again. He never walks in front of Johnny or even alongside him, but is always at least somewhat behind him. He never speaks to Mike or looks him in the eye; in fact, I seriously believe that Johnny had forbidden him to associate with Mike at all. When Mike sees Randall at the sign-ups and tries to get him to join OK, Randall, of course, had no idea that Mike would have even BEEN there, let alone on a team, and Randall did not know WHICH team, since he was NOT THERE when Mike put himself in OK or when Mike made that deal with the Dean, so Randall does not honestly understand just WHY this is so important to Mike. He tells Mike, "sorry, Mike, but I'm already on a team" and shows off his ROR sweater, beaming happily. He then says, "I'm finally in with the cool kids, Mike!" At that moment, though, Johnny notices Randall is talking to "the Enemy", and calls out to him, "BOGGS!", actually slapping his own thigh as he says it in the same manner that you command a DOG to "heel". Randall nearly jumps out of his skin when he hears Johnny, because he KNOWS he's not supposed to be doing what he was just doing and he fears reprisal. THAT'S when he puts his hand up to his mouth in that conspiratorial way, suggesting a double-meaning to his next words: "please don't blow this for me, Mike". His words sound harsh, and all the Mike supporters use them to prove that Randall was always just a social-climbing little jerk who at that moment "betrayed" Mike, but that gesture says a lot, too, and really drives home the fact that Randall has no hard feelings towards Mike, but he's not allowed to speak to him publicly. There was more than a hint of "I'll talk to you later when these guys (ROR)aren't around". In another scene, the one where Johnny head-slaps Chet, watch Randall's face. Up until this point, he'd been looking down, avoiding Mike's gaze, and blinking a lot, like someone who is fighting back tears. In fact, when I saw the movie the second time, some girls of about 8-9 years old, who were in front of me, actually suggested that Randall was trying not to cry. But when Johnny slaps Chet, Randall's face goes from shock, to FEAR, an "OMG!" look, like he was afraid he might screw up and be next. It was very, very plain to me that Randall was never really happy once he was in ROR, and that he was definitely afraid of Johnny Worthington.

Hmm, I’d have to watch the movie again, but I honestly don’t remember any of this "bullying"... are you sure you aren’t reading too deeply into stuff? Chet is an IDIOT and all I remember is Johnny looking exasperated and dope-slapping the crab (how did Chet get in ROR? He must test well).

Randy put his hand up like that so less people would hear him say that. Randy has no hard feelings, but Mike is being embarrassing. Really, really, oh-jeez-never-seen-him-before-haha-embarrassing in front of the whole school.

Johnny shouted Randy’s name. Most people jump at that. And Johnny shouted in front of a crowd, already watching Randy, because Mike put him on the spot—a stressful situation for people who AREN’T shy and nervous. And Randy is a nervous fellow with bad eyesight, who as you pointed out earlier, can’t see. So he’s going to be fidgety and blinking and general a bit nervy around the cool kids. He’s not confident when he joins ROR, but as the movie progresses, you see Randy straightening up and looking more relaxed and sure of himself.

I believe Johnny walks in front because Johnny is the leader of ROR (the president? not sure the word). As I mentioned near the end of my post, I wished they had some more animation for the frat group-poses. As cute as Randy’s tiny queenly wave is, the exact same wave four times is less appealing.

Now, the Scare Games. 100% agreed that ROR played honest and fair, in spite of hints that they would cheat or sabotage their opponents.

“in spite of hints that they would cheat or sabotage” <- What hints? Just the fact the ads playing them up as OK’s rival? Or the FAN-speculation there might be foulplay? That’s not really a hint, and it’s not in the movie.

Also agreed that ROR, NOT OK< was the legit winners, which is why Sulley handed the trophy to Johnny, but kicking Randall out because he lost? NOPE, not right at ALL!

WHERE does Randy get kicked out?! I keep seeing this assumption brandied about like a fact, but watching the scene I didn’t see Randy kicked, just yelled at by his team like most guys would do after losing a match. I made certain to pay extra attention to that part because people were freaking out, but I didn’t see him tossed out or his jacket taken or anything, so WHERE is this coming from?

Randall had performed admirably in all of the competitions, and helped ROR get where they were, even though he was just a freshman. The ONLY reason he lost to Sulley is because SULLEY sabotaged RANDALL'S Scare, and SHOULD have been DQ'd. Unlike the "Avoid the Parent" competition in the Library, it was NOT specifically stated that the only goal was to scare the robot kid. In fact, there were no instances of any team messing up another teams's performance, so interfering with a rival in any of the competitions should have been grounds for elimination, but Sulley's stomping on the floor, which caused Randall to fall, was not questioned. That was the ONLY reason why Randall lost, not because of anything HE did wrong! Now, REGGIE ALSO lost his Scare competition, to Don, BUT Reggie did just screw up, big-time, due to clumsiness, stepping on a squeaky toy and falling on his face, and HE wasn't even a freshman! But Reggie doesn't get kicked out, does not get ridiculed or yelled out! Heck, until it was officially revealed the day after that the OK's win was not real, that Sulley had cheated, everyone thought that JOHNNY lost to Mike, but I can guarantee that NO ONE would have dared to call HIM out for it! Johnny intimidated others, and it wasn't just with little things like pranks, either. I have no doubt that he could and would back it up with force if and when he had to. Randall had probably dealt with guys like him since childhood and learned a painful lesson before: you do not cross guys like Johnny and expect not to pay a price. Kicking Randall out, for something that was not his fault at all, adding injury to insult on top of him being publicly ridiculed by thousands of spectators, something Randall feared even more than getting beaten up physically, especially after he'd done so well to bring his team THIS far on rather short notice, was completely uncalled for, and really drove home for me that fact that Johnny had really been just using Randall to get at Mike all along and had never really thought of him as a real member of ROR. THAT, honestly, is the one problem I have with Johnny. Most people focus on how he treated Mike, but Mike really called down that thunder on himself by challenging Johnny, again and again, and quite frankly got off easy considering what Johnny COULD have done to him. Johnny simply called a spade a spade; he KNEW, just as Dean Hardscrabble knew, that Mike was no Scarer, and was brutally honest in saying so. Where Johnny overstepped, in my opinion, was in recruiting Randall in order to isolate Mike, taking advantage of Randall's loneliness and his failure to get Mike to be a REAL friend, and later, in kicking Randall out of ROR.

I do not see Randall's promise to himself as "proof" that he hated Sullivan, or Mike(Mike especially). I DO think he was hurt by Mike's repeated rejection of friendship in favor of studying, made worse when he sees that Mike DID choose Sulley to be his friend and was willing to go to parties with Sulley and the OK guys...but not with Randall earlier.

Johnny is supposed to be intimidating, he’s a top-notch scarer. Not sure how widely known that Sulley cheated at the end was—he only told the Dean, alone, and then crazy adventure with Mike in human world and explosion—so the Sacre Games were probably overshadowed a bit. In the wake of that bit of crazy, changing the winner was probably less heard. I bet Johnny/ROR were mocked for losing to OK, even if it was not on screen and even if it’s not true.


I still don’t see how you can connect JOHNNY with all of RANDY’S failings in MU (failing to see popularity isn’t everything, for example. The bit with the scare games in the end is not Randy’s fault nor a fail on Randy’s part). It seems a bit hypocritical to some of your other posts on this board complaining about movies always having to have a villain. MU HAD no villains. Why are you so convinced Johnny should be made into one?

The REAL rivalry and resentment, though, does not start until they're working at MI, and Sulley starts his unrealistic rise to the top of the Scare Boards, when he didn't even graduate...and he just happens to be close friends with the CEO who had taken such personal interest in him. Knowing that Sullivan was a cheater before, Randall would have every reason to suspect that Sullivan's success now was due to dishonesty and cheating. Why WOULDN'T he be angry and bitter over THAT?

pitbulllady

I agree that the rivalry didn’t start until MI time as well.

[pitbulllady]

Aug 7, 2013 0:38:17 GMT -5 Theophilus Hatta said:

I totally agree with a LOT of what you said, especially in not seeing that Randall had "turned evil" or "gone to the Dark Side" for joining ROR and pranking the OK's. Pranks are a hard cold FACT in college. If you can't take 'em or dish 'em out, better stay home, because you're GOING to be involved in pranks, some of which are a lot more extreme than what ROR did. That's just part of college culture.

Too bad there wasn’t a prank in retaliation. Sulley seemed the type in this movie, but I suppose Mike would care more about the win!

Couple of points, mostly minor, that I couldn't quite get into, though, starting with the glasses. Yeah, THOSE glasses, as cute as they were, needed to go. The problem was, Mike didn't take into account that Randall wore those thick lenses for a reason: he had lousy eyesight! I'm sure that more-discreet frames were available that wouldn't have interfered with Randall's particular Scaring talent. I hate to think of someone going through most of their life not being able to see squat, poor guy!

Poor Randy indeed. Ditching glasses entirely is a dumb move, but Mike is right about Scaring in them. Judging by the size of those puppies, contracts aren’t likely. I’m betting he’s severely farsighted. I don’t think he could keep any sort of frame and still do his scaring technique, unless he got Edna from ‘Incredibles’ to make them. And then there’s still the problem of the glass distorting the area… I suppose that wouldn’t matter as just in the dark, but still, probably easier to just ditch.

Randall and ROR-yeah, there was the peer pressure, but that happens with ANY group, doesn't it? Someone is in charge, and everyone else follows. Even though the little girls on Tumblr don't want to admit it, they fall for peer pressure, too, and they love to gang up on like a pack of wild dogs. I can totally sympathize with Randall wanting to fit it, be popular and be accepted, just as I can sympathize with a starving person wanting to EAT-it's something that Randall has never had! Criticizing him for that is like attacking someone who is dead-broke, like ME, wanting to find a lot of money, seriously! In a way, they did help him with his confidence issues, since we see him gradually getting more relaxed and confident in the Scare Games, and obviously, as you pointed out, Randall had to have had good grades or he never could have gotten in. The requirements of being a Scare major AND maintaining a high GPA weren't Johnny's rules; those were ROR rules that were established long before any of the current membership seen in MU were even born, so even Johnny could not bend those rules. BUT...there WAS a downside for Randall being in ROR. For one thing, Randall didn't approach them, since it was well past Rush Week when people can apply to join fraternities or sororities.

It was nice to see something as real and normal as peer pressure being used in a realistic way to dictate a character's actions, instead of some melodramtic nonsense.

Using the movie, only this is known: Sulley impressed ROR enough to get a trial run, Sulley wasn’t up to snuff, Sulley got kicked, spot was open again, Randy took the spot.

How do we know Randy never approached them though? He was at the party that night; he may have applied off-screen. Maybe put on some kind of waitlist? Plus, Rush Week is a whole week. That’s plenty of time to talk with them and check stuff out. Normally, frats are enormous—and the ROR house always seemed to have a bunch of dudes in it—it wouldn’t surprise me it there were much more than six members a semester. Even if you are only allowed six dudes, and there’s one open spot, there’s always one or two backups.

Why are you, pitbulllady, assuming it was Johnny who approached Randy? Randy really wanted to be with the cool kids and ROR are the coolest on campus.


You normally cannot join a fraternity or sorority once Rush week is over, and that takes place at the very beginning of the school term, usually in early September. The only way you can get in past that time is to be invited in, which doesn't happen often. Yes, Randall went to the Rush party...and we saw how badly THAT ended for him, with his cupcakes all over his face, spelling out the word "LAME", more humiliation. Randall's a shy guy, VERY insecure, especially around big, jock-type guys. He's not going to just walk up to them and ask to be in their group. You saw how nervous he was at the football game, surrounded by all these big dudes, looking like a deer in the headlights. It's just not "him" to do something that bold unless approached first. Also, watch Johnny closely in that scene as Mike and Randall are going up the steps to the building and Randall is calling out test questions for Mike as they walk along. Johnny is watching them both like a hawk. He's figured out that Randall is Mike's only friend, and he probably has noticed potential in Randall as a Scarer. Remember that he and the other ROR's were there when Sulley provoked that confrontation with Mike that ultimately got both of them kicked out of the Scare Program, and even though the ROR's left when Sulley got kicked out, they probably hung around just outside, waiting for Randall. Randall wanted to be "in with the cool kids", yeah, but actually getting up the courage to approach them directly is a whole other ball game. If you recall, even Sulley only got in ROR because they noticed "him" catching the pig and they invited him in.

I am absolutely convinced that part of Johnny's motivation for asking Randall to join them was to isolate him from Mike. One of the things I found remarkable about Johnny is how observant he was, how he was always closely watching others and their interactions, and you can almost see the gears turning in that big head of his as he assesses the relationships between others and figures out how to use those to his advantage.

Mike had already gotten on Johnny's bad side, which is NOT a nice place to be, but rather than do something as crass and "redneck" as beating Mike up, Johnny chose instead to take away the only person on campus even willing to speak to Mike and associate with him: Randall.

What? How are you leaping to this conclusion? Johnny was calling Sulley stupid because someone as unscary as Mike was beating Sulley and making ROR look bad. When Johnny first met Mike, he very clearly didn’t care about him and openly dismissed him from his mind by pointing him at OK.

Mike has no other friends… Probably true. The only reason you only see Mike and Randy together in shots is because they are friendly roommates in the same program. Randy is probably the one trying to get Mike to go out and have more fun, not just stay holed up studying all the time. The movie shows Mike’s goal is to be the best scarer, no matter what is takes. Mike says there is time for parties AFTER school, not during—so clearly making friends is not Mike’s priority in MU.

When has Johnny acted “crass and redneck” in the movie? Johnny is clearly old-money. He’s ROR, so he’s smart and scary, even if he does look like a meathead. He’s competitive and smarmy, not evil.

I think you mis-read what I posted. I did NOT say that Johnny EVER acted "crass and redneck", only that he COULD have gone that route, which many big, strong guys would have to drive home their point to Mike, who was like an irritating little mosquito. I also never said that Johnny was evil, and in fact I've defended HIM a few times against that charge, too. He does need to work on his "people skills", but given his family background, he honestly does not know any better. He's only following, to quote Hank Williams, Jr. a "family tradition". He's actually a very intelligent and intriguing character, flawed of course, but then all well-developed characters ARE.

And while we don't directly SEE any of the ROR members bullying Randall per se, it IS implied that they did. Randall NEVER speaks once he goes over to join them at the Scare Games sign-ups, until he says that line about never losing to Sullivan again. He never walks in front of Johnny or even alongside him, but is always at least somewhat behind him. He never speaks to Mike or looks him in the eye; in fact, I seriously believe that Johnny had forbidden him to associate with Mike at all. When Mike sees Randall at the sign-ups and tries to get him to join OK, Randall, of course, had no idea that Mike would have even BEEN there, let alone on a team, and Randall did not know WHICH team, since he was NOT THERE when Mike put himself in OK or when Mike made that deal with the Dean, so Randall does not honestly understand just WHY this is so important to Mike. He tells Mike, "sorry, Mike, but I'm already on a team" and shows off his ROR sweater, beaming happily. He then says, "I'm finally in with the cool kids, Mike!" At that moment, though, Johnny notices Randall is talking to "the Enemy", and calls out to him, "BOGGS!", actually slapping his own thigh as he says it in the same manner that you command a DOG to "heel". Randall nearly jumps out of his skin when he hears Johnny, because he KNOWS he's not supposed to be doing what he was just doing and he fears reprisal. THAT'S when he puts his hand up to his mouth in that conspiratorial way, suggesting a double-meaning to his next words: "please don't blow this for me, Mike". His words sound harsh, and all the Mike supporters use them to prove that Randall was always just a social-climbing little jerk who at that moment "betrayed" Mike, but that gesture says a lot, too, and really drives home the fact that Randall has no hard feelings towards Mike, but he's not allowed to speak to him publicly. There was more than a hint of "I'll talk to you later when these guys (ROR)aren't around". In another scene, the one where Johnny head-slaps Chet, watch Randall's face. Up until this point, he'd been looking down, avoiding Mike's gaze, and blinking a lot, like someone who is fighting back tears. In fact, when I saw the movie the second time, some girls of about 8-9 years old, who were in front of me, actually suggested that Randall was trying not to cry. But when Johnny slaps Chet, Randall's face goes from shock, to FEAR, an "OMG!" look, like he was afraid he might screw up and be next. It was very, very plain to me that Randall was never really happy once he was in ROR, and that he was definitely afraid of Johnny Worthington.

Hmm, I’d have to watch the movie again, but I honestly don’t remember any of this "bullying"... are you sure you aren’t reading too deeply into stuff? Chet is an IDIOT and all I remember is Johnny looking exasperated and dope-slapping the crab (how did Chet get in ROR? He must test well).

Randy put his hand up like that so less people would hear him say that. Randy has no hard feelings, but Mike is being embarrassing. Really, really, oh-jeez-never-seen-him-before-haha-embarrassing in front of the whole school.

But see, THAT right there, Randall acting "embarrassed" to be speaking to Mike, is one of the main reasons why so many people now hate Randall with a passion and find him to be "a jerk", think that he "betrayed Mike" or "turned on Mike", that scene right there. I've seen the movie four times, and poor eyesight or not, Randall was SCARED when Johnny called out his name. I've even watched that as a slow-motion gif, and you can plainly see the fear in his eyes when Johnny calls him, just like someone who has been caught red-handed doing something they know they're not supposed to be doing. *I* don't jump when someone calls MY name, not even in a crowd.

Johnny shouted Randy’s name. Most people jump at that. And Johnny shouted in front of a crowd, already watching Randy, because Mike put him on the spot—a stressful situation for people who AREN’T shy and nervous. And Randy is a nervous fellow with bad eyesight, who as you pointed out earlier, can’t see. So he’s going to be fidgety and blinking and general a bit nervy around the cool kids. He’s not confident when he joins ROR, but as the movie progresses, you see Randy straightening up and looking more relaxed and sure of himself.

I believe Johnny walks in front because Johnny is the leader of ROR (the president? not sure the word). As I mentioned near the end of my post, I wished they had some more animation for the frat group-poses. As cute as Randy’s tiny queenly wave is, the exact same wave four times is less appealing.

Yes, his title was president of ROR. Even still, I've seen enough frats and sororities to know that it is not normal for the president of said group to make the others walk behind him except at parades or something. The other guys in ROR indicate what they REALLY think of Randall when Johnny orders him, as one would speak to a dog, to come over and "do the thing", so they can all laugh at him. He's not an equal not even to the other guys, not even to that goofball Chet. If you pay much attention to small group dynamics, Randall is the equivalent of the lowest-ranking member of a wolf pack. He's literally the "Omega" in Roar Omega Roar.

Now, the Scare Games. 100% agreed that ROR played honest and fair, in spite of hints that they would cheat or sabotage their opponents.

“in spite of hints that they would cheat or sabotage” <- What hints? Just the fact the ads playing them up as OK’s rival? Or the FAN-speculation there might be foulplay? That’s not really a hint, and it’s not in the movie.

Also agreed that ROR, NOT OK< was the legit winners, which is why Sulley handed the trophy to Johnny, but kicking Randall out because he lost? NOPE, not right at ALL!

WHERE does Randy get kicked out?! I keep seeing this assumption brandied about like a fact, but watching the scene I didn’t see Randy kicked, just yelled at by his team like most guys would do after losing a match. I made certain to pay extra attention to that part because people were freaking out, but I didn’t see him tossed out or his jacket taken or anything, so WHERE is this coming from?

Randall had performed admirably in all of the competitions, and helped ROR get where they were, even though he was just a freshman. The ONLY reason he lost to Sulley is because SULLEY sabotaged RANDALL'S Scare, and SHOULD have been DQ'd. Unlike the "Avoid the Parent" competition in the Library, it was NOT specifically stated that the only goal was to scare the robot kid. In fact, there were no instances of any team messing up another teams's performance, so interfering with a rival in any of the competitions should have been grounds for elimination, but Sulley's stomping on the floor, which caused Randall to fall, was not questioned. That was the ONLY reason why Randall lost, not because of anything HE did wrong! Now, REGGIE ALSO lost his Scare competition, to Don, BUT Reggie did just screw up, big-time, due to clumsiness, stepping on a squeaky toy and falling on his face, and HE wasn't even a freshman! But Reggie doesn't get kicked out, does not get ridiculed or yelled out! Heck, until it was officially revealed the day after that the OK's win was not real, that Sulley had cheated, everyone thought that JOHNNY lost to Mike, but I can guarantee that NO ONE would have dared to call HIM out for it! Johnny intimidated others, and it wasn't just with little things like pranks, either. I have no doubt that he could and would back it up with force if and when he had to. Randall had probably dealt with guys like him since childhood and learned a painful lesson before: you do not cross guys like Johnny and expect not to pay a price. Kicking Randall out, for something that was not his fault at all, adding injury to insult on top of him being publicly ridiculed by thousands of spectators, something Randall feared even more than getting beaten up physically, especially after he'd done so well to bring his team THIS far on rather short notice, was completely uncalled for, and really drove home for me that fact that Johnny had really been just using Randall to get at Mike all along and had never really thought of him as a real member of ROR. THAT, honestly, is the one problem I have with Johnny. Most people focus on how he treated Mike, but Mike really called down that thunder on himself by challenging Johnny, again and again, and quite frankly got off easy considering what Johnny COULD have done to him. Johnny simply called a spade a spade; he KNEW, just as Dean Hardscrabble knew, that Mike was no Scarer, and was brutally honest in saying so. Where Johnny overstepped, in my opinion, was in recruiting Randall in order to isolate Mike, taking advantage of Randall's loneliness and his failure to get Mike to be a REAL friend, and later, in kicking Randall out of ROR.

I do not see Randall's promise to himself as "proof" that he hated Sullivan, or Mike(Mike especially). I DO think he was hurt by Mike's repeated rejection of friendship in favor of studying, made worse when he sees that Mike DID choose Sulley to be his friend and was willing to go to parties with Sulley and the OK guys...but not with Randall earlier.

Johnny is supposed to be intimidating, he’s a top-notch scarer. Not sure how widely known that Sulley cheated at the end was—he only told the Dean, alone, and then crazy adventure with Mike in human world and explosion—so the Sacre Games were probably overshadowed a bit. In the wake of that bit of crazy, changing the winner was probably less heard. I bet Johnny/ROR were mocked for losing to OK, even if it was not on screen and even if it’s not true.


I still don’t see how you can connect JOHNNY with all of RANDY’S failings in MU (failing to see popularity isn’t everything, for example. The bit with the scare games in the end is not Randy’s fault nor a fail on Randy’s part). It seems a bit hypocritical to some of your other posts on this board complaining about movies always having to have a villain. MU HAD no villains. Why are you so convinced Johnny should be made into one?

Again I don't think you read my entire post. I have NEVER, EVER complained that a movie had to have a villain; in fact, I PREFER movies that DO NOT have villains! I'm not trying to make Johnny into one, either, but he DID kick Randall out for what was not a valid reason, and I don't think that all of his motives for having Randall in ROR were all that great. IF he just kicked Randall out for losing his competition, why did he not kick Reggie out for the same thing? The interiors of the Scare Simulators were shown on wide-screen tv's, btw, so everyone could see what Sulley did and what happened to Randall as a result. They could also see Reggie screw up, big-time, during his Scare, but he doesn't even get yelled at. Johnny's no villain, but he most definitely IS an antagonist, and there is a difference between the two, as well. Johnny does have a nasty streak, so while he might not be the Devil incarnate, he's no angel, either. He's honest, but not altogether FAIR. He is by NO MEANS responsible for "all of Randy's failings at MU", as you claimed I suggested, but getting kicked out of what is probably the only social group of any kind that Randall has ever belonged to for what is a very petty reason would have been a major deal to Randall, or as Pink Floyd would put it, "another brick in the wall". There was also that incident with the cupcakes that went so badly wrong and the football game where Sulley dumped popcorn on Randall, his reaction to that Scream canister zipping around the classroom, none of which had anything to do with Johnny at all. MOST of the problems Randall encounters at MU are caused, directly or indirectly, by SULLEY, who seems oblivious to it all, so that by the time he messes up Randall's scare, that was just the final straw as far as Randall was concerned.

The REAL rivalry and resentment, though, does not start until they're working at MI, and Sulley starts his unrealistic rise to the top of the Scare Boards, when he didn't even graduate...and he just happens to be close friends with the CEO who had taken such personal interest in him. Knowing that Sullivan was a cheater before, Randall would have every reason to suspect that Sullivan's success now was due to dishonesty and cheating. Why WOULDN'T he be angry and bitter over THAT?

pitbulllady

I agree that the rivalry didn’t start until MI time as well.

[Theophilus Hatta]

Woah, give me a minute to sort through your reply, it's really hard for me to see/read this text...

[Theophilus Hatta]

Ok, I think I found all your replies nested in those quoteblocks. Sorry, the weird format throw me off.

But see, THAT right there, Randall acting "embarrassed" to be speaking to Mike, is one of the main reasons why so many people now hate Randall with a passion and find him to be "a jerk", think that he "betrayed Mike" or "turned on Mike", that scene right there. I've seen the movie four times, and poor eyesight or not, Randall was SCARED when Johnny called out his name. I've even watched that as a slow-motion gif, and you can plainly see the fear in his eyes when Johnny calls him, just like someone who has been caught red-handed doing something they know they're not supposed to be doing. *I* don't jump when someone calls MY name, not even in a crowd.

*I* jump a mile every time my name is called out, crowd or not. My first response is always "crap-what-did-I-do-I-didn't-do-it" even though I haven't done anything wrong.
You could link that gif, it would make arguing easier.
And, as I said, Mike was being really embarrassing. Randy doesn't want to be a dork. Randy doesn't want to be seen with dorks, especially in front of his ROR brothers. There probably is a rule about the level of "coolness" ROR members are allowed to hang out with- clearly Mike doesn't met that quota.

Yes, his title was president of ROR. Even still, I've seen enough frats and sororities to know that it is not normal for the president of said group to make the others walk behind him except at parades or something. The other guys in ROR indicate what they REALLY think of Randall when Johnny orders him, as one would speak to a dog, to come over and "do the thing", so they can all laugh at him. He's not an equal not even to the other guys, not even to that goofball Chet. If you pay much attention to small group dynamics, Randall is the equivalent of the lowest-ranking member of a wolf pack. He's literally the "Omega" in Roar Omega Roar.

Cool. I thought it was president.

“except at parades or something” – Isn’t the scare games an “other something”? It’s a big event with a lot of showing off. It makes sense that the President is in front, it makes the group look strong to have a set walking pattern. The other members of ROR are pretty quiet too... did Javier even have any lines? I think Reggie had one, but Chip was just background… Johnny and Chet had the most lines by virtue of being the ones talking to Mike.

“do the thing” – I suppose you can call that bullying, but it seems stretching it to me. They weren’t laughing at Randy, they were laughing because Randy’s trick should guarantee their win. It was a laugh of triumph. Johnny is voiced by Nathan Fillion playing a very smarmy and hammy character. A laugh of triumph works more for Johnny than anything else.

Well, of course Randy is the lowest member. He’s the newest, and as a freshman, probably the youngest in the group. He hasn’t proven himself to them yet.

Again I don't think you read my entire post. I have NEVER, EVER complained that a movie had to have a villain; in fact, I PREFER movies that DO NOT have villains! I'm not trying to make Johnny into one, either, but he DID kick Randall out for what was not a valid reason, and I don't think that all of his motives for having Randall in ROR were all that great. IF he just kicked Randall out for losing his competition, why did he not kick Reggie out for the same thing? The interiors of the Scare Simulators were shown on wide-screen tv's, btw, so everyone could see what Sulley did and what happened to Randall as a result. They could also see Reggie screw up, big-time, during his Scare, but he doesn't even get yelled at. Johnny's no villain, but he most definitely IS an antagonist, and there is a difference between the two, as well. Johnny does have a nasty streak, so while he might not be the Devil incarnate, he's no angel, either. He's honest, but not altogether FAIR. He is by NO MEANS responsible for "all of Randy's failings at MU", as you claimed I suggested, but getting kicked out of what is probably the only social group of any kind that Randall has ever belonged to for what is a very petty reason would have been a major deal to Randall, or as Pink Floyd would put it, "another brick in the wall". There was also that incident with the cupcakes that went so badly wrong and the football game where Sulley dumped popcorn on Randall, his reaction to that Scream canister zipping around the classroom, none of which had anything to do with Johnny at all. MOST of the problems Randall encounters at MU are caused, directly or indirectly, by SULLEY, who seems oblivious to it all, so that by the time he messes up Randall's scare, that was just the final straw as far as Randall was concerned.

I don’t think you read MY post. WHEN did Johnny kick Randy out? WHERE is your evidence? WHERE is the part of the movie that you can point to and show me evidence – audio or visual—that Johnny Kicked Randy Out?

Your assumption that Randy was kicked out of ROR and therefore had a terrible time at school, all because of Johnny, is what bothers me since you have not produced evidence of this happening. This would make Johnny a villain to Randy, not the whole movie, just to Randy. Johnny is not Waternoose—Johnny is not manipulating Randy to dispose of him later or let him take the fall.

Johnny is MIKE’S antagonist, not Randy’s.

Yes, Sulley is accidently the one who messed up Randy’s cupcakes and later his Scare event. Thus the cute line about “not losing to you Sullivan again”, which was a harmless phrase from Randy (Randy probably has no idea who pushed him when he had the cupcakes). As we agreed, the real rivalry between the two didn’t start until MI… so what do you mean “the final straw as far as Randall was concerned”?

[pitbulllady]

Aug 7, 2013 12:34:21 GMT -5 Theophilus Hatta said:

Ok, I think I found all your replies nested in those quoteblocks. Sorry, the weird format throw me off.

But see, THAT right there, Randall acting "embarrassed" to be speaking to Mike, is one of the main reasons why so many people now hate Randall with a passion and find him to be "a jerk", think that he "betrayed Mike" or "turned on Mike", that scene right there. I've seen the movie four times, and poor eyesight or not, Randall was SCARED when Johnny called out his name. I've even watched that as a slow-motion gif, and you can plainly see the fear in his eyes when Johnny calls him, just like someone who has been caught red-handed doing something they know they're not supposed to be doing. *I* don't jump when someone calls MY name, not even in a crowd.

*I* jump a mile every time my name is called out, crowd or not. My first response is always "crap-what-did-I-do-I-didn't-do-it" even though I haven't done anything wrong.
You could link that gif, it would make arguing easier.
And, as I said, Mike was being really embarrassing. Randy doesn't want to be a dork. Randy doesn't want to be seen with dorks, especially in front of his ROR brothers. There probably is a rule about the level of "coolness" ROR members are allowed to hang out with- clearly Mike doesn't met that quota.

Yes, his title was president of ROR. Even still, I've seen enough frats and sororities to know that it is not normal for the president of said group to make the others walk behind him except at parades or something. The other guys in ROR indicate what they REALLY think of Randall when Johnny orders him, as one would speak to a dog, to come over and "do the thing", so they can all laugh at him. He's not an equal not even to the other guys, not even to that goofball Chet. If you pay much attention to small group dynamics, Randall is the equivalent of the lowest-ranking member of a wolf pack. He's literally the "Omega" in Roar Omega Roar.

Cool. I thought it was president.

“except at parades or something” – Isn’t the scare games an “other something”? It’s a big event with a lot of showing off. It makes sense that the President is in front, it makes the group look strong to have a set walking pattern. The other members of ROR are pretty quiet too... did Javier even have any lines? I think Reggie had one, but Chip was just background… Johnny and Chet had the most lines by virtue of being the ones talking to Mike.

“do the thing” – I suppose you can call that bullying, but it seems stretching it to me. They weren’t laughing at Randy, they were laughing because Randy’s trick should guarantee their win. It was a laugh of triumph. Johnny is voiced by Nathan Fillion playing a very smarmy and hammy character. A laugh of triumph works more for Johnny than anything else.

Well, of course Randy is the lowest member. He’s the newest, and as a freshman, probably the youngest in the group. He hasn’t proven himself to them yet.

Again I don't think you read my entire post. I have NEVER, EVER complained that a movie had to have a villain; in fact, I PREFER movies that DO NOT have villains! I'm not trying to make Johnny into one, either, but he DID kick Randall out for what was not a valid reason, and I don't think that all of his motives for having Randall in ROR were all that great. IF he just kicked Randall out for losing his competition, why did he not kick Reggie out for the same thing? The interiors of the Scare Simulators were shown on wide-screen tv's, btw, so everyone could see what Sulley did and what happened to Randall as a result. They could also see Reggie screw up, big-time, during his Scare, but he doesn't even get yelled at. Johnny's no villain, but he most definitely IS an antagonist, and there is a difference between the two, as well. Johnny does have a nasty streak, so while he might not be the Devil incarnate, he's no angel, either. He's honest, but not altogether FAIR. He is by NO MEANS responsible for "all of Randy's failings at MU", as you claimed I suggested, but getting kicked out of what is probably the only social group of any kind that Randall has ever belonged to for what is a very petty reason would have been a major deal to Randall, or as Pink Floyd would put it, "another brick in the wall". There was also that incident with the cupcakes that went so badly wrong and the football game where Sulley dumped popcorn on Randall, his reaction to that Scream canister zipping around the classroom, none of which had anything to do with Johnny at all. MOST of the problems Randall encounters at MU are caused, directly or indirectly, by SULLEY, who seems oblivious to it all, so that by the time he messes up Randall's scare, that was just the final straw as far as Randall was concerned.

I don’t think you read MY post. WHEN did Johnny kick Randy out? WHERE is your evidence? WHERE is the part of the movie that you can point to and show me evidence – audio or visual—that Johnny Kicked Randy Out?

Your assumption that Randy was kicked out of ROR and therefore had a terrible time at school, all because of Johnny, is what bothers me since you have not produced evidence of this happening. This would make Johnny a villain to Randy, not the whole movie, just to Randy. Johnny is not Waternoose—Johnny is not manipulating Randy to dispose of him later or let him take the fall.

Johnny is MIKE’S antagonist, not Randy’s.

Yes, Sulley is accidently the one who messed up Randy’s cupcakes and later his Scare event. Thus the cute line about “not losing to you Sullivan again”, which was a harmless phrase from Randy (Randy probably has no idea who pushed him when he had the cupcakes). As we agreed, the real rivalry between the two didn’t start until MI… so what do you mean “the final straw as far as Randall was concerned”?

I'll start with the things that Sulley does in MU which Randall would have been aware of and would have filed away in his mind as "bad stuff that Sullivan does".
1. First day of class, Sulley barges in, LATE, announcing his presence with a loud roar, scaring Randall half to death, and is STILL praised by Professor Knight for just being a Sullivan. He does not even bring materials to class, but borrows a pencil from another student...and proceeds to pick his teeth with it, disrespectfully putting his feet up on the back of a chair, but is never admonished for doing that. Instead, he's held up to the class as an example of what a Scarer should look like! You know what they say about first impressions, and I'm sure that Sulley's first impression on Randall was not a very good one.

2. The Cupcake Incident-while it's true that it was actually Archie the pig, with Mike on his back, who hit Randall and caused the tray to hit him under the chin, and the cupcakes to fall on his face, resulting in the two HSS girls rolling their eyes at him in contempt, you can bet that before the sun came up the next morning, Randall would have learned from his roommate who was behind that particular incident. Their dorm would have been a shambles when he returned, since Mike had not had time to clean up before having to take off in pursuit of Archie, and Randall would have wanted to know what happened. To be sure Mike would have filled him in on every detail, from how Sullivan mistook THEIR dorm for HIS, and put the pig that he'd stolen inside, all the way up to how Sullivan claimed credit for having caught the pig when MIKE actually did, and THEN how Sulley got invited to join a fraternity(more than one, actually)while Mike was ignored. You can guarantee, knowing Mike, that he really gave his roommate an earful, and not ONCE asked Randall how HIS night had gone, how the others had liked the cupcakes, and Randall probably didn't bother telling him even if he had gotten a chance to get in a word or two. In either case, he would have known that James Sullivan was responsible, so now that's TWO strikes against Sullivan.

3. The football game-Randall is scared and very much out of his element, and keeps looking to Mike for reassurance, but Mike is studying, as usual, oblivious to Randall's isolation. When the team scores, Sulley, who is seated with ROR a couple of rows above Randall, jumps up and showers Randall with popcorn. It's not intentional...but Randall doesn't know that. He looks up at Sulley with a "WTF" expression when the popcorn falls all over him, and Sulley is of course not paying attention to Randall at all, acting like he doesn't notice him. THAT probably is one of the worst things he does, in Randall's perspective, doing things like that and never even acknowledging it. Now that's THREE strikes.

4. The Final Exam day in class-This is probably the worst incident in Randall's mind that completely seals the deal for him that James P. Sullivan is a total jerk-a$$. I know that if I had been in that classroom, even if I'd never seen this Sullivan guy before, I'd have left with a really bad impression of him. Sulley comes in, and deliberately knocks Mike's books(keep in mind Randall was still trying to think of Mike as his friend, even if that wasn't the case)onto the floor. Randall tries to get Mike to move somewhere else, realizing that there's going to be a confrontation, but Mike disregards his advice. During the altercation that results, the Dean's Scream canister is knocked over, and goes "off", zipping around the room like a missile, narrowly missing Randall's head at one point and putting everyone in danger, so that's TWO things right there that Sulley has done. As a result of Sulley's provocation, both he AND Mike are kicked out of the Scare Program, and Randall KNOWS how important being a Scarer was to Mike, so that's THREE things just from that one incident that add up to Sullivan being a bad person in Randall's mind.

5. Oozma Kappa-Mike had turned down Randall's offers of friendship, refusing to go to parties with him or hang out socially with him. Only NOW, Mike IS willing to go to a party, now that he's with the OK's, and not with Randall anymore...and guess who is with him? James P. Sullivan, of course! Now, there's two ways Randall could look at that, one being that HE obviously wasn't good enough to be Mike's friend, but Sulley WAS, or two, Sulley had "taken" Mike from him as a friend. That makes seven things now, in any case.

6. The final Scare Games competition-Randall cannot, unlike the spectators and judges, see inside both Simulators, so he had no way to know that Sulley's stomping on the floor wasn't deliberately intended to sabotage HIS Scare. He just knows that it did. Not only that, but it caused him to experience a horrible humiliation in front of thousands of fellow students, faculty, parents and other visitors. Again, I need to point out that while this would have been bad enough for anyone(and I've experienced something very similar myself, so I know what that feels like), it's especially bad for Randall because being a "joke", being embarrassed in front of others is a particular hang-up of his, bordering on a phobia. That would be like taking someone who is terrified of spiders, putting them up on a stage in front of thousands, and dumping live spiders all over them, in terms of what that would have done to him emotionally. As for evidence of Randall having been kicked out of ROR, Johnny offer's Sulley Randall's jacket later on...and where is Randall? We never see him again. He was NOT with the other ROR guys when they step up to congratulate Sulley for his team's win. Maybe he voluntarily dropped out; taht's possible, but it is also very possible that he was kicked out. That could have been the entire fraternity's decision or just Johnny's, but in any case, he's no longer with them. THAT was the point at which Randall is no longer able to internalize all the things that Sulley had done, and while they might not be "big" things, little things do add up. Sulley has firmly established himself as a Bad Guy, dishonest, uncaring, a rich kid who gets by with what he does because of his family name, who will still be liked and admired for that reason. If you listen to MIKE'S words to Sulley, out at that lake, it's easy to imagine RANDALL saying them, because they really perfectly summed up what Randall no doubt felt about Sulley and believed to be true, only Randall never got that chance to find out what Sulley was really like, what made him "tick", so by the time they meet again in MI, with Sulley now a Scarer in direct competition with Randall, Randall still believes those things. He remembers all those things that Sulley did in college and has no reason to believe that Sulley has changed. Had they NOT been put in direct competition with each other, Randall probably would have simply filed James P. Sullivan further and further back in his mind, but once Sulley wound up on the Scare Floor and once again Randall saw him being treated like royalty, put up on a pedestal, those old wounds would have re-opened and festered.

Now, back to Johnny...I don't hate the guy, in fact, I like him, a LOT. He DOES, though, have issues that need to be worked on, big time. I don't know if you've read the description of him in the "Art of Monsters University" book or not, or read the interview with his voice actor, Nathan Fillion(and like Steve Buscemi, he really seems to have an excellent "grip" on his character's personality). Both emphasize that Johnny has his own borderline phobia: failure. Like Sulley, and even more than Sulley, he's got a family legacy to live up to, but both the book and Nathan Fillion have indicated that Johnny's father is largely to blame, that his father has brought him up with the mantra, "I do not tolerate failures/losers and did not RAISE a failure/loser", so Johnny is under tremendous pressure not to disappoint and bring shame to his family. He lives with the knowledge that his father's "love" is not unconditional, and he must earn it, which is a helluva weight for a 22-23 year-old, barely an adult, to carry around. Accordingly, he treats his ROR underlings as HE himself has been treated by his own dad. If they fail, HE fails, and he cannot accept that happening. Nonetheless, he's not so desperate as to resort to being dishonest to get a win. He might not always treat others nicely, but I cannot fault the guy at all for his honesty. Even though the "loss" to the OK's was a shock and no doubt he WOULD, as Mike had warned, have to face a lot of ridicule in the days to come,and even worse, he's going to have to tell his father that he got beaten in the Scare Games. He still was man enough to approach Sulley and admit that he was WRONG in having kicked Sulley out(although he really wasn't)and to congratulate him on that win, and that took a lot of courage to do. Johnny needs a better role model than "John-John", his father, and he REALLY needs to work on his interactions with others and how he treats them, especially those whom he does not consider to be his equals because of their Scaring abilities or lack of a family name, but I do feel that will come with time and experience. Like I said, he's barely more than a kid himself and he's still got a lot of childlike behaviors. I'm afraid, though, that he's got a tough road ahead of him at some point, that will force him to deal with how he's treated others in the past and that will shake up what he's always believed, especially once the Scaring industry is turned on its end by Sulley's discovery that Laugh energy is far more powerful. I do have to wonder, in MU, if Johnny had any real FRIENDS, as opposed to just followers and admirers who hung around him because of WHAT he was, rather than those who genuinely liked him or cared about for WHO he was as a person.

pitbulllady

[CrazyDiamond]

Sorry for jumping into your argument. I didn't really read most of what you two have written due to time constraints, but I noticed the argument about Randy being/not-being kicked out of ROR.

Randy getting kicked out of ROR is a plausible theory, because:

1) Sulley always wears the ROR jacket after he's been accepted to ROR. Johnny takes it from him before he is to prove himself worthy of ROR. Similarly, once accepted, Randall always wears his jacket, even during the hide and seek challenge. Since he doesn't wear it during the scare challenge, one could argue that Johnny repeats his "motivational" new member strategy with Randall.

2) All frats/sororities featured in the movie have exactly six members (see below), probably because of the Scare Games. More members would pose a competitive disadvantage. Since Johnny offers Sulley back his membership after the Games, it is implied that ROR has lost a member, most likely Randy. If that wasn't the case, ROR would have had 7 members.


So again, not exactly hard evidence, but, in my opinion, convincing indirect evidence.

Now I'll dissappear again.

[pitbulllady]

Thank you, CD!
Even though we don't see that absolute hard evidence of Johnny and the others in ROR actually kicking Randall out, I DO think that Pixar strongly implied that this is what happened.
Again, while I'm NOT hating on Johnny or trying to make him out to be a horrible person, just the way he interacts directly with other frat members(not counting OK)does indicate that he has no qualms about dealing with those who stand up to him. Take that first scene where we see him, for instance, at the party. "Big Red" O'Growlahan and the guy from Omega Howl have taken notice of Sulley and "his" capture of the pig, and are arguing as to which one should get "dibs" on inviting him into their respective fraternities. When Johnny comes over and tells them that he'll "take it from here", both of them immediately defer to him, without so much as a word. Watch their faces, though-those two were NOT happy campers! They didn't defer to him out of respect, judging by their faces, and as leaders of their own respective frats, they were equal in rank to him. Big Red even briefly looks like he's going to go back over and say something, but the other guy sort of touches his upper arm in that way that says, "let it go, bro", and they walk away, but not without a final dirty look. They gave way not out of respect, not because Johnny outranked them, but because they both knew that you don't mess with Johnny Worthington and get away with it. There WILL be repercussions, one way or the other. Johnny is very much an Alpha Male. He's a born leader, but he has yet to learn out to be a REAL leader, and he's not very secure yet with his position, so he feels the need to throw his weight around to maintain his Alpha status.

pitbulllady

[Theophilus Hatta]

I'll start with the things that Sulley does in MU which Randall would have been aware of and would have filed away in his mind as "bad stuff that Sullivan does".
1. First day of class, Sulley barges in, LATE, announcing his presence with a loud roar, scaring Randall half to death, and is STILL praised by Professor Knight for just being a Sullivan. He does not even bring materials to class, but borrows a pencil from another student...and proceeds to pick his teeth with it, disrespectfully putting his feet up on the back of a chair, but is never admonished for doing that. Instead, he's held up to the class as an example of what a Scarer should look like! You know what they say about first impressions, and I'm sure that Sulley's first impression on Randall was not a very good one.

Sulley’s first impression was to show he was an ass and richardy yet still personable enough to look good. That should be the impression everyone from Randy to the Professor to Mike should have felt. Sulley comes in SCARY. That was an excellent roar. But as the class progresses, it’s clear Sul’s talking out of his butt and has very limited skills die to his laziness. There’s no reason why Randy should take Sulley’s first impression so seriously.

Actually the more I think about this scene, the more it feels like a reference to MI. The difference being that MI!Sully has the skills to pay the bills and MU!Sully is just a braggart.

2. The Cupcake Incident-while it's true that it was actually Archie the pig, with Mike on his back, who hit Randall and caused the tray to hit him under the chin, and the cupcakes to fall on his face, resulting in the two HSS girls rolling their eyes at him in contempt, you can bet that before the sun came up the next morning, Randall would have learned from his roommate who was behind that particular incident. Their dorm would have been a shambles when he returned, since Mike had not had time to clean up before having to take off in pursuit of Archie, and Randall would have wanted to know what happened. To be sure Mike would have filled him in on every detail, from how Sullivan mistook THEIR dorm for HIS, and put the pig that he'd stolen inside, all the way up to how Sullivan claimed credit for having caught the pig when MIKE actually did, and THEN how Sulley got invited to join a fraternity(more than one, actually)while Mike was ignored. You can guarantee, knowing Mike, that he really gave his roommate an earful, and not ONCE asked Randall how HIS night had gone, how the others had liked the cupcakes, and Randall probably didn't bother telling him even if he had gotten a chance to get in a word or two. In either case, he would have known that James Sullivan was responsible, so now that's TWO strikes against Sullivan.

No doubt Randy would be pissed about the state of their room and Mike would be complaining about Sully and the scare-pig. I’d complain too. About both situations.

But you are assuming Randy couldn’t move on from the cupcake thing. Sure, it ruined Randy’s flirting, but who knows, he may have salvaged the evening and still had fun.

I’d only call it one strike against Sullivan. It’s not like Sulley crashing in regularly, so there’s no reason to really dislike him for anything other than his personality. And outside of classes, does Randy go anywhere near him? This Randall AVOIDS conflict so it stands to reason he would avoid people he does not like. This version of Sulley thinks he’s the scariest thing since ghosts said boo, but not an active bully—he does not harass anyone, just annoys with his richardiness.

3. The football game-Randall is scared and very much out of his element, and keeps looking to Mike for reassurance, but Mike is studying, as usual, oblivious to Randall's isolation. When the team scores, Sulley, who is seated with ROR a couple of rows above Randall, jumps up and showers Randall with popcorn. It's not intentional...but Randall doesn't know that. He looks up at Sulley with a "WTF" expression when the popcorn falls all over him, and Sulley is of course not paying attention to Randall at all, acting like he doesn't notice him. THAT probably is one of the worst things he does, in Randall's perspective, doing things like that and never even acknowledging it. Now that's THREE strikes.

The football game was part of the parallel act of Mike studying is eye out and Sulley goofing off. The fallen popcorn was a clever panning technique.

I’ve both been dropped on and the dropper of things at a sports event. Most times, I don’t know how dropped it looking up AFTER its spilled (how can you tell when everyone looks the same and especially went you have no glasses on and can’t see well?) and when I’m the one dropping, it’s a complete accident. Only very petty people would hold grudges for an accident.

Obviously Randy was the one who suggested going to the game since Mike is studying. What you call looking for reassurance I say just looking around, being excited then getting bored… I don’t imagine Randy as football fan, but the stadium is a nice social setting that plenty of people with zero sports interest go to. Perfectly suiting Randy’s desires to make friends and be cool.

4. The Final Exam day in class-This is probably the worst incident in Randall's mind that completely seals the deal for him that James P. Sullivan is a total jerk-a$$. I know that if I had been in that classroom, even if I'd never seen this Sullivan guy before, I'd have left with a really bad impression of him. Sulley comes in, and deliberately knocks Mike's books(keep in mind Randall was still trying to think of Mike as his friend, even if that wasn't the case)onto the floor. Randall tries to get Mike to move somewhere else, realizing that there's going to be a confrontation, but Mike disregards his advice. During the altercation that results, the Dean's Scream canister is knocked over, and goes "off", zipping around the room like a missile, narrowly missing Randall's head at one point and putting everyone in danger, so that's TWO things right there that Sulley has done. As a result of Sulley's provocation, both he AND Mike are kicked out of the Scare Program, and Randall KNOWS how important being a Scarer was to Mike, so that's THREE things just from that one incident that add up to Sullivan being a bad person in Randall's mind.

The whole point of Sulley’s character is that he is a huge jerk to everyone.

Sulley is a danger to EVERYONE in that room. Sulley did not deliberately put Randy in any more danger than anyother student in that room. I’d be surprised if he even knew the guys name.

And while Mike is Randy’s friend, he’s not Randy’s responsibility. Randy suggested Mike do the sensible thing and back off. If Mike had listened, the fight would not have started. But Mike did not listen to his friend and decided to try and scare Sulley. As they say, it takes two to tango. Sulley started it, but Mike escalated even he had the opportunity to be the bigger monster. Sulley and Mike are equally responsible for that fight and the breaking of the Dean’s canister. I actually really liked how equally they were at fault and the reason they were drummed out was due to their scaring techniques. Even if they hadn’t fought, the Dean would have drummed them out for the same reason—Mike is not scary and Sulley is not creative.

You brought up Randy feeling bad for a Mike. Well, duh. He’s Mike’s friend and roommate. They probably spent the night with Mike crying on Randy’s shoulder(s) blaming Sulley AND the Dean. Sulley’s MIKE’s problem, not Randy’s.

5. Oozma Kappa-Mike had turned down Randall's offers of friendship, refusing to go to parties with him or hang out socially with him. Only NOW, Mike IS willing to go to a party, now that he's with the OK's, and not with Randall anymore...and guess who is with him? James P. Sullivan, of course! Now, there's two ways Randall could look at that, one being that HE obviously wasn't good enough to be Mike's friend, but Sulley WAS, or two, Sulley had "taken" Mike from him as a friend. That makes seven things now, in any case.

Untrue. Randy and Mike went to the football game together. Mike was still studying, but they went out. They had almost an entire semester together as roommates. Mike only turned down ONE party onscreen with Randall in an establishing character moment on the FIRST day of university, showing Mike was focused on working hard. Randy basically said “ok, cool, next time” to that. No hard or hurt feelings. There’s no reason to assume Mike NEVER hung out with his roomie—even the hardest studier needs a break to recharge once in a while—that’s the whole reason Mike and OK went to the party in the movie, because they worked hard and needed a break.

I’d need to see the movie again or some screenshots to confirm if Randy and Mike are even still roommates by the time Mike joined OK. A lot of schools have LLCs that group students under the same subject together in housing so they can be around people in their field and make friends faster. Because Mike was kicked from the Scaring program, he may have had to move out of the scaring floor for the new semester. When you and a friend are no longer in the same program, or still roommates, you see them a lot less. Not because you aren’t still friendly, but your timetables have changed and you don’t share the same classes/classmates.



From the Scare games below (breaking up the posts for better flow), yes, Randy is pissed he lost. He does not know WHY his scare was messed up, just the floor shook at the wrong minute. The Simulators were, as you said, closed. Why would he go for a petty move like blaming the competition when he has no reason? It does not wash with his character. Even in MI, Randall doesn’t blame others for when he gets stuff wrong (ok, he shouts at Fungus, but that’s therapeutic)… why would he blame Sulley for stomping the floor, which he had no way of knowing he did, which caused him to mess up? No one told him Sulley was so loud, he shook the walls. Why would he blame Sulley for anything?

Even after he rejoins ROR on the field, Randy doesn’t seem that mad at Sulley. The way he’s acting, he more like, “next time, I’ll win” and he’s being a good sports man about it.

It was Johnny who lost the event against Mike, a moment of believable luck on OK’s side (and cheating, but no one knew at the time). ROR should have won, even with Randy’s fail score. Randy was no doubt crushed and embarrassed, but it’s not like the whole school is dwelling on Randy’s failed scare… everyone else cares about the amazing underdog story and later that night, Mike and Sulley’s amazing adventure.

Randal had three full, Sulley and Mike-less years of university, possibly four if he minored in something else. The scare games were a big event, but there’s a lot of life between MU and MI and three more scare games he could have played in.



So, from your three strikes, I agree only one (the scare-pig rampage) and perhaps the final event of the Scare Games as partial factors in disliking Sulley later in the MI timeline.

6. The final Scare Games competition-Randall cannot, unlike the spectators and judges, see inside both Simulators, so he had no way to know that Sulley's stomping on the floor wasn't deliberately intended to sabotage HIS Scare. He just knows that it did. Not only that, but it caused him to experience a horrible humiliation in front of thousands of fellow students, faculty, parents and other visitors. Again, I need to point out that while this would have been bad enough for anyone(and I've experienced something very similar myself, so I know what that feels like), it's especially bad for Randall because being a "joke", being embarrassed in front of others is a particular hang-up of his, bordering on a phobia. That would be like taking someone who is terrified of spiders, putting them up on a stage in front of thousands, and dumping live spiders all over them, in terms of what that would have done to him emotionally. As for evidence of Randall having been kicked out of ROR, Johnny offer's Sulley Randall's jacket later on...and where is Randall? We never see him again. He was NOT with the other ROR guys when they step up to congratulate Sulley for his team's win. Maybe he voluntarily dropped out; taht's possible, but it is also very possible that he was kicked out. That could have been the entire fraternity's decision or just Johnny's, but in any case, he's no longer with them. THAT was the point at which Randall is no longer able to internalize all the things that Sulley had done, and while they might not be "big" things, little things do add up. Sulley has firmly established himself as a Bad Guy, dishonest, uncaring, a rich kid who gets by with what he does because of his family name, who will still be liked and admired for that reason. If you listen to MIKE'S words to Sulley, out at that lake, it's easy to imagine RANDALL saying them, because they really perfectly summed up what Randall no doubt felt about Sulley and believed to be true, only Randall never got that chance to find out what Sulley was really like, what made him "tick", so by the time they meet again in MI, with Sulley now a Scarer in direct competition with Randall, Randall still believes those things. He remembers all those things that Sulley did in college and has no reason to believe that Sulley has changed. Had they NOT been put in direct competition with each other, Randall probably would have simply filed James P. Sullivan further and further back in his mind, but once Sulley wound up on the Scare Floor and once again Randall saw him being treated like royalty, put up on a pedestal, those old wounds would have re-opened and festered.

Now, back to Johnny...I don't hate the guy, in fact, I like him, a LOT. He DOES, though, have issues that need to be worked on, big time. I don't know if you've read the description of him in the "Art of Monsters University" book or not, or read the interview with his voice actor, Nathan Fillion(and like Steve Buscemi, he really seems to have an excellent "grip" on his character's personality). Both emphasize that Johnny has his own borderline phobia: failure. Like Sulley, and even more than Sulley, he's got a family legacy to live up to, but both the book and Nathan Fillion have indicated that Johnny's father is largely to blame, that his father has brought him up with the mantra, "I do not tolerate failures/losers and did not RAISE a failure/loser", so Johnny is under tremendous pressure not to disappoint and bring shame to his family. He lives with the knowledge that his father's "love" is not unconditional, and he must earn it, which is a helluva weight for a 22-23 year-old, barely an adult, to carry around. Accordingly, he treats his ROR underlings as HE himself has been treated by his own dad. If they fail, HE fails, and he cannot accept that happening. Nonetheless, he's not so desperate as to resort to being dishonest to get a win. He might not always treat others nicely, but I cannot fault the guy at all for his honesty. Even though the "loss" to the OK's was a shock and no doubt he WOULD, as Mike had warned, have to face a lot of ridicule in the days to come,and even worse, he's going to have to tell his father that he got beaten in the Scare Games. He still was man enough to approach Sulley and admit that he was WRONG in having kicked Sulley out(although he really wasn't)and to congratulate him on that win, and that took a lot of courage to do. Johnny needs a better role model than "John-John", his father, and he REALLY needs to work on his interactions with others and how he treats them, especially those whom he does not consider to be his equals because of their Scaring abilities or lack of a family name, but I do feel that will come with time and experience. Like I said, he's barely more than a kid himself and he's still got a lot of childlike behaviors. I'm afraid, though, that he's got a tough road ahead of him at some point, that will force him to deal with how he's treated others in the past and that will shake up what he's always believed, especially once the Scaring industry is turned on its end by Sulley's discovery that Laugh energy is far more powerful. I do have to wonder, in MU, if Johnny had any real FRIENDS, as opposed to just followers and admirers who hung around him because of WHAT he was, rather than those who genuinely liked him or cared about for WHO he was as a person.

pitbulllady

Sorry for jumping into your argument. I didn't really read most of what you two have written due to time constraints, but I noticed the argument about Randy being/not-being kicked out of ROR.

Randy getting kicked out of ROR is a plausible theory, because:

1) Sulley always wears the ROR jacket after he's been accepted to ROR. Johnny takes it from him before he is to prove himself worthy of ROR. Similarly, once accepted, Randall always wears his jacket, even during the hide and seek challenge. Since he doesn't wear it during the scare challenge, one could argue that Johnny repeats his "motivational" new member strategy with Randall.

2) All frats/sororities featured in the movie have exactly six members (see below), probably because of the Scare Games. More members would pose a competitive disadvantage. Since Johnny offers Sulley back his membership after the Games, it is implied that ROR has lost a member, most likely Randy. If that wasn't the case, ROR would have had 7 members.

Thank you, CD!
Even though we don't see that absolute hard evidence of Johnny and the others in ROR actually kicking Randall out, I DO think that Pixar strongly implied that this is what happened.

So Randy being kicked out is a THEORY.

OK, I can get behind a theory. It’s when it’s treated as hard fact that I get annoyed.

And thanks for jumping in, CD. Its nice to argue back and forth with someone other than PBL.

Again, while I'm NOT hating on Johnny or trying to make him out to be a horrible person, just the way he interacts directly with other frat members(not counting OK)does indicate that he has no qualms about dealing with those who stand up to him. Take that first scene where we see him, for instance, at the party. "Big Red" O'Growlahan and the guy from Omega Howl have taken notice of Sulley and "his" capture of the pig, and are arguing as to which one should get "dibs" on inviting him into their respective fraternities. When Johnny comes over and tells them that he'll "take it from here", both of them immediately defer to him, without so much as a word. Watch their faces, though-those two were NOT happy campers! They didn't defer to him out of respect, judging by their faces, and as leaders of their own respective frats, they were equal in rank to him. Big Red even briefly looks like he's going to go back over and say something, but the other guy sort of touches his upper arm in that way that says, "let it go, bro", and they walk away, but not without a final dirty look. They gave way not out of respect, not because Johnny outranked them, but because they both knew that you don't mess with Johnny Worthington and get away with it. There WILL be repercussions, one way or the other. Johnny is very much an Alpha Male. He's a born leader, but he has yet to learn out to be a REAL leader, and he's not very secure yet with his position, so he feels the need to throw his weight around to maintain his Alpha status.

As I said somewhere earlier, Johnny’s old money. Old Money and reputation. ROR is the old, respected frat on campus… playing with the big boys now. >:3
I never said you were hating on Johnny. I agree Johnny’s the Alpha Male and has a lot to learn about being a true leader. Have you seen Crispy-Gypsy’s series on Johnny post MU? He’s grown up a lot in that and its really quite fun.




As for the Randy-being-kicked-out-theory… I dunno. Seems too unbelievable to me. There has GOT to be more than six members of a frat at time given time. Every frat I’ve seen in real life has at least 20 current members and few brothers/sisters who just hang out and people who are more admin types. Plus the ROR house is always full. Six members is an outrageously tiny amount. There’s a whole section of Greek housing. Not to mention there are more frats NOT competing in the Scare Games. So logically, there’s more ROR not in the games, just not in focus for the movie. The frats get a tiny amount of screen time as it is, and six is about of the limit on the amount of characters you can squeeze in a shot and still have a personality.

I think the number six is just for the scare games. The rules were you needed six members. It makes sense to send your best guys to represent the frat. There was no conflict in missing a member either. They had six members before the games and after kicking Sulley out. Randy was just late to meeting ROR at the announcement. While Randy isn’t seen joining ROR, Mike isn’t seen joining OK. Considering this is Mike’s movie and we don’t see that, we have no idea when or how he joined, much like Randy.


As for the issue of the jackets…they are clearly different ROR jackets. Think about the size difference between Randy and Sulley. Sulley is HUGE, yet if anything the jacket Randy is wearing is a little small on the skinny lizard. So Randy couldn’t have taken Sulley’s jacket and spot… if he had, he would be swimming in fabric.

And later when Sulley is offered a ROR jacket again, it’s big. In fact, it’s Sulley’s size. Not Randy’s. When ROR offered it to him, it was hours after the games. Most people had gone home. So what if Randy wasn’t there when it was offered to Sulley? Neither was half of ROR… in fact, most shots, Chip Goff isn’t with the ROR group. Does that mean he’s been kicked out? Doubtful.

I just don’t see ENOUGH to support Randy being kicked out of ROR.

[pitbulllady]

The thing you are forgetting about Randall, that separates him from either you OR me, is that Pixar STRONGLY established, right from the start, the fact that Randall IS emotionally fragile. He does NOT approach new or social situations with what most would consider a "normal" perspective at all. He is very nervous and high-strung and has very, very little self-confidence. HE establishes, via his own words, that he's afraid of being ridiculed, of being a "joke", of being "embarrassed", so NO, he's NOT going to easily move on or get over something like the cupcake incident happening to him. While they do not come right out and say it, it IS implied that prior to MU, Randall has been very isolated from his own peer age group, for whatever reasons. He is very socially inept. He uses outdated words like "chum" and "pal", and he tends to think of kids his own age as being categorized into two groups: the "cool kids", and those like himself, who AREN'T "cool". Why does he put himself in that latter group? Why does he think that he's "not cool"? Very likely, it's because he's been told that he isn't, repeatedly. Randall internalizes things that happen to him; in other words, he blames himself, and thinks that HE is the problem, while mentally filing away things that others do, like Sulley. I can promise you that I would have had some issues with Sulley right from the start, right from just that first day of class, and mentally filed him under "A$$", and it would have take a LOT of convincing from him to get me to move him out of that category! Yeah, I've had people dump worse than popcorn on ME, too, at games or NASCAR races, but if I see it's the same person that I've already pinned down as an ass, that isn't going to help their case any, not with me. At some point, if this same person keeps doing things, however trivial they might seem, I'm going to reach the end of my patience with them and run out of cheeks to turn, and while I might have wondered the first couple of times if what they were doing was random, or if it was "just me", I'm going to reach a point where I can't blame anyone but THEM, and that's what Randall did.

Oh, Chip isn't missing from the ROR scenes. He's in the background, but someone actually recently did post all of the scenes with ROR and circled Chip in the scenes on Tumblr, so he's there. Randall isn't, though, after his loss to Sulley. We NEVER see him again. I think that CD had a valid point about the fact that when Randall goes up against Sulley, he's not wearing his ROR sweater. That's the ONLY time after he joins that he's not wearing it. Pixar made a point of specifically showing how Johnny "motivated" Sulley to "deliver on the Sullivan name" on the day of the Scare exams by taking and holding HIS jacket, so we would connect that with Randall not wearing his sweater later on, and then us not seeing Randall again after that.

pitbulllady

[Theophilus Hatta]

The thing you are forgetting about Randall, that separates him from either you OR me, is that Pixar STRONGLY established, right from the start, the fact that Randall IS emotionally fragile. He does NOT approach new or social situations with what most would consider a "normal" perspective at all. He is very nervous and high-strung and has very, very little self-confidence. HE establishes, via his own words, that he's afraid of being ridiculed, of being a "joke", of being "embarrassed", so NO, he's NOT going to easily move on or get over something like the cupcake incident happening to him. While they do not come right out and say it, it IS implied that prior to MU, Randall has been very isolated from his own peer age group, for whatever reasons. He is very socially inept. He uses outdated words like "chum" and "pal", and he tends to think of kids his own age as being categorized into two groups: the "cool kids", and those like himself, who AREN'T "cool". Why does he put himself in that latter group? Why does he think that he's "not cool"? Very likely, it's because he's been told that he isn't, repeatedly.

It's strongly implied he's a DORK, not that he's isolated. He's totally nebbish. He's NOT cool... why is it that a problem that he sees he's not cool and wants to change it? Part of university is establishing your adult identity. Randy wants shed his nebbish former self and be cool.

What's not implied is he just curls up and dies when he's embarrassed. He might internalize the cupcake incident and stress about it (I've done that plenty of times, lain awake at night and tell myself I'm an idiot), but Randy's main drive in the movie is becoming cool. Do cool kids freeze up when something bad happens? NO, cool kids move on and try to play it to their advantage. I'm not saying in anyway covered the cupcake incident smoothly, but he had to have done something. Maybe turned invisible? That could have been the incident that got him noticed by ROR, doing that COOL disappearing trick.

Randall is seen hanging out at the football game, Randall is seen walking around being totally normal, Randall is seen with ROR... We only see Randall in relation to Mike because it's Mike's movie, not Randall's. We know NOTHING about Randall's true socialization skills because we SEE none of it. He's still having a life off camera.

I can promise you that I would have had some issues with Sulley right from the start, right from just that first day of class, and mentally filed him under "A$$", and it would have take a LOT of convincing from him to get me to move him out of that category!

Yeah, Sulley was an ass. Which is why Randall did not interact with him. Sulley antagonized MIKE, not Randall. Sulley spilled popcorn on him once-- did Randy even KNOW it was Sulley? Randy. Can't. See. Well. Sulley messed up his dorm once-- by accident. Sulley messed up Randy's final event -- by accident and again, Randy might not have even known what happened. It was not the andy's score that really cost them the game, it was Mike's outrageously high score.

If could get behind Sulley reaching such a ye-gods-what-ahorrible-ass, if he did ANY of this on purpose or repeatedly. Sulley did ALL of them accidentally and/or ONCE. So all that's left is Sul's co cky attitude.

Years LATER, without seeing seen Sully in all that time, Randy might have still thought he was an ass once Randy recognized him. But think of how nice, laidback and friendly MI Sulley is. If MI!Sulley reintroduced himself to Randy, what would that impression be? People change. People mature. So a vague dislike of a classmate from years ago is not a reason to automatically dislike them when you see them again.

I'm going to reach the end of my patience with them and run out of cheeks to turn, and while I might have wondered the first couple of times if what they were doing was random, or if it was "just me", I'm going to reach a point where I can't blame anyone but THEM, and that's what Randall did.

Yes. That happened in MI, when Randall was much more bitter at the world. I don't think that realistically Randall could hold a grudge over something like "the jerk spilled popcorn on me once in college" for YEARS after it happened. The only incident worth remembering was the Scare Games in Randall's freshman year, for something that Sulley did accidentally that Randall might not even KNOWN about? It doesn't hold water.

What makes sense, and what you seemed to be agreeing to earlier, is that the Sulley/Randall rivalry started at MI.

Starting it earlier makes Randy look extremely petty as a character.

Oh, Chip isn't missing from the ROR scenes. He's in the background, but someone actually recently did post all of the scenes with ROR and circled Chip in the scenes on Tumblr, so he's there. Randall isn't, though, after his loss to Sulley. We NEVER see him again. I think that CD had a valid point about the fact that when Randall goes up against Sulley, he's not wearing his ROR sweater. That's the ONLY time after he joins that he's not wearing it. Pixar made a point of specifically showing how Johnny "motivated" Sulley to "deliver on the Sullivan name" on the day of the Scare exams by taking and holding HIS jacket, so we would connect that with Randall not wearing his sweater later on, and then us not seeing Randall again after that.

Really? You'd have to link those pictures.

Randall wasn't wearing his jacket for the same reason he wasn't wearing his glasses- his scare technique. Randy's trick is INVISIBILITY. Kinda hard to pull that off wearing a cute sweater, no?

I'm confused on teh point you are trying to make here...
Johnny was "motivating Sulley to "deliver on the Sullivan name" by holding a ROR jacket.
Randall, still playing for ROR, was not wearing a ROR jacket during his event.
After ROR "lost", Johnny offered Sulley a ROR jacket.

See my above point for the SIZE of the jacket offered and the NUMBER of jackets available.
Randal's special skill is invisibility. This event wasn;t a riddle, so the teams knew exactly what to prepare for and where it was.. makes sense to just leave the jacket at home where it's safe.
Again, it's after the scare games. See above post for more on the NUMBER of jackets.

I think the first offer was an attempt to psych Sulley out before the game, as well as a test for Sulley's commitment to OK. Startofmovie!Sully would have sold OK down the river, but his loyalty his lame OK brothers shows his character development from total-jerk to much-less-a-jerk. I think the second offer was genuine-- clearly Sulley must be one fantastic scarer to carry that loser team! Ok, not the offered with the noblest thoughts from ROR, but with genuine respect.

As for not seeing Randy again... a) he could be there invisible, b) not all of ROR was there, c) Mike&Sulley's Most Excellent Adventure ends with them at the bus stop so there was never a chance to SEE ROR again after their scene.

[CrazyDiamond]

"Randall wasn't wearing his jacket for the same reason he wasn't wearing his glasses- his scare technique. Randy's trick is INVISIBILITY. Kinda hard to pull that off wearing a cute sweater, no?"

He was wearing it through the hide and seek challenge, though

[Theophilus Hatta]

The ' Hide and Seek' was hiding in a room using the furniture and other tricks. It was meant to challenge how well you could hide. That's why Randy hid his sweater-clad part in a lamp and blended the rest of himself. In this challenge, wearing clothes was not something that actively worked against him.

The last event was how well you could scare. Wearing a sweater is not conductive to Randy's scare style when he's creeping along the wall. His big thing in his scare technique is suddenly popping into sight and scaring the schtako out of the kid. He can't wallcreep while wearing a sweater and stay invisible. So Randy left the sweater at home, where it was safe and couldn't get dirty from being thrown on the field.

Thinking that Randy not wearing a sweater means he's been kicked out of ROR makes no sense because he's still competing in ROR's event.

[CrazyDiamond]

Aug 9, 2013 10:01:46 GMT -5 Theophilus Hatta said:

Thinking that Randy not wearing a sweater means he's been kicked out of ROR makes no sense because he's still competing in ROR's event.

We mean that Johnny has taken his sweater as a motivation to get his scare right. He did the same thing to Sullivan before his exam, and after he failed, ROR kicked him. The narrative logic hints at Randall being kicked out as well.

By the way. during the hide and seek challenge, though, Randall could've just dicthed the sweater and remained invisible on the ceiling the whole time.